Jump to content

Welcome to 205GTIDrivers.com
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
 
 

Photo

[car_upgrade] 205 Gets An Extra 2 Cylinders


113 replies to this topic

#21
welshpug

welshpug
  • Pitcrew+
  • 30,028 posts
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
  • Name:Mei
  • Location:Bridgend
There is an LSD available, and I'd rather the extra weight of the ML5 box than trying to use a BE gearbox on there myself, the gear ratios are pretty close to being perfect, making them lower would be silly (they'll pull off in 3rd!!), and making them taller would be un-necessary as they'll pull 155mph+ on the stock non-VVT rev limit (which is about 500 rpm lower than the later VVT engine IIRC)

They're a bit like a turbo engine in some respect, just without the turbo lag!

You'd need no less bespoke parts to use the BE gearbox, bellhousing adapter, custom flywheel, a clutch to cope whilst being easy to use daily would be my main concern, also unsure how far along the shaft the ML5 bearing is, it could well be different to the BE bearing (quite likely!) which would add more hassle.

The only parts needed for the ML5 are the shafts, modified subframe (which needs a certain amount of modifying anyway for the V6) and clutch mechanism, use stock clutch + flywheel, stock shift cables.

Just my opinions though!

keep us updated, what with a few people on here that have already done this conversion there's a fair amount of knowledge to help you along :lol:

have you started on the wiring yet? I have a few ideas and info on that :D

#22
thirdtimelucky

thirdtimelucky
  • Drivers
  • 201 posts
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
  • Location:Cranbrook, Kent
Good point welshpug, Just thought the weight saving would make the v6 more usable on the track. the main reason for doing it is the challenge, my background is engineering design and manufacturing, and I get board easily, thats where my 4wd came from :D . Also I want to see if I can get the V6 to run a 4wd 205 :lol:

#23
GLPoomobile

GLPoomobile
  • Drivers
  • 7,334 posts
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
  • Name:Barnaby Worthington-Titwank III
  • Location:Edinburgh
Paul

Unless I'm very much mistaken, you haven't even given us any sort of project topic for your 4wd 205 yet. Come on, get your priorities right! :D

#24
thirdtimelucky

thirdtimelucky
  • Drivers
  • 201 posts
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
  • Location:Cranbrook, Kent

Paul

Unless I'm very much mistaken, you haven't even given us any sort of project topic for your 4wd 205 yet. Come on, get your priorities right! :D

The 4wd is coming off the road at the end of the summer for some improvements, ill start a project thread then as I didnt take many photos first time around.

#25
DrSarty

DrSarty
  • Drivers
  • 4,983 posts
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
  • Name:Rich
  • Location:Peterborough
Garage View Garage

Ill be running the v6 ecu mainly for budget reasons it is the earlier engine so not using the multiplexed wiring. I will upgrade to after market management as funds become available.


I can understand the budget thing, because if you went say Emerald now, you'd need around 700 for the ECU plus 300 for mapping, so an additional 1,000 to find. Depending on where you are (i.e. what knowledgable mapping access you have) then I'm sure DTA or OMEX would be available at a similar cost. I only refer to Emerald as I have one and know the costs and we pretty much all agree that Dave Walker's one highly respected individual. Maxi & Dan know someone very good and if you can get his time, Sandy Brown with a DTA would probably unleash more from the lump giving you quick payback on your grand.

But I would say it might be worth trying to find that 1,000 and getting it all in now, i.e. fresh loom, nice and simple and you'd not have to faff about later. PLUS you'd get what Dan's referring to, i.e. a better, less compromised engine from day 1 and spend more time enjoying it. That's what finding that extra grand would deliver - more fun.

Great stuff Paul. I've gotta dash: I'm on fries tonight. :wacko:

<_<

#26
welshpug

welshpug
  • Pitcrew+
  • 30,028 posts
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
  • Name:Mei
  • Location:Bridgend
What with the good condition of the 406 looms, that side isn't really an issue, they seem far less exposed to the elements and a higher quality than the looms you are used to seeing from phase 1 405's and 205's.

#27
kate205gti

kate205gti
  • Drivers+
  • 1,937 posts
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
  • Location:Herts/Beds/Bucks
lol i dont know many ppl who can "find" an extra 1k <_< :P this is a good conversion on a budget - and blows other more expensive conversions out the water imo :wacko: so can stay with the standard management for now

after all 197bhp and 209 lb/ft is none too shabby :)

#28
Goliath

Goliath
  • Drivers+
  • 1,302 posts
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
  • Name:G
  • Location:Bristol

after all 197bhp and 209 lb/ft is none too shabby <_<


It's 'only' 190bhp and 197lb/ft so you might want some mods after all! lol

#29
Alastairh

Alastairh
  • Pitcrew
  • 5,897 posts
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
  • Name:Alastair
  • Location:Kettering

lol i dont know many ppl who can "find" an extra 1k <_< :P this is a good conversion on a budget - and blows other more expensive conversions out the water imo :wacko: so can stay with the standard management for now

after all 197bhp and 209 lb/ft is none too shabby :)


Just don't blow yours up Miss 7 16v's...

#30
kate205gti

kate205gti
  • Drivers+
  • 1,937 posts
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
  • Location:Herts/Beds/Bucks
hehe! that was 16v - this is 24v to bend now :wacko: :) <_<

#31
maxi

maxi
  • Pitcrew
  • 3,003 posts
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
  • Location:Burgess Hill, West Sussex
Garage View Garage
I really do like this conversion and I am in no way knocking it whatsoever, but.......


Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

I really am intrigued to see how they go in the real world. I think the person to honestly answer this question who judgement I trust is Hilgie.

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

Maxi

#32
kate205gti

kate205gti
  • Drivers+
  • 1,937 posts
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
  • Location:Herts/Beds/Bucks
well ive had mi16, mi16 on throttle bodies, mi16 on cams on throttle bodies, gti6 on throttle bodies - all with RR printouts from the same place (emerald), so could take momo to emerald once hes done and get a direct comparison

having had a ride in georges already though im quite confident that its the new gti6 :D :o :P

#33
Tesstuff

Tesstuff
  • Drivers
  • 1,291 posts
Joined: 24 May 2007
  • Name:Daz
  • Location:Leicester

I really do like this conversion and I am in no way knocking it whatsoever, but.......


Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

I really am intrigued to see how they go in the real world. I think the person to honestly answer this question who judgement I trust is Hilgie.

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

Maxi


Rich's is a more than DECENT Mi and despite having more bhp on paper he couldn't show George's v6 a clean pair of heels according to reports.

A 'standard' Mi would be left for dust by a v6.

Edited by Tesstuff, 16 July 2009 - 02:49 PM.


#34
[L'e$kro]

[L'e$kro]
  • Drivers
  • 108 posts
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
  • Location:Vannes, France and Cork, Ireland

Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

I really am intrigued to see how they go in the real world. I think the person to honestly answer this question who judgement I trust is Hilgie.

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

Maxi

A few videos are available between a 205 2l turbo (TCT) slightly tuned and a stock v6..
http://video.google....684676129689932
http://www.dailymoti...3la-revanche-lo

vs a t16:
http://www.dailymoti...-vs-205-v6_auto

and one just for the noise


What about the weight of the v6 engine compared to a gti-6?

Nicolas

#35
maxi

maxi
  • Pitcrew
  • 3,003 posts
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
  • Location:Burgess Hill, West Sussex
Garage View Garage

well ive had mi16, mi16 on throttle bodies, mi16 on cams on throttle bodies, gti6 on throttle bodies - all with RR printouts from the same place (emerald), so could take momo to emerald once hes done and get a direct comparison

having had a ride in georges already though im quite confident that its the new gti6 :D :o :P



Christ, a 205 thats had more engines than the sla! Im not doubting the power or that god for saken afterbirth, torque of these engines and I do think its a very very good conversion but I just wondered how they compare on the road to an mi or gti6. Ive seen cars make big power and on the road be about as much use as a chocolate tea pot.

Maxi

#36
kate205gti

kate205gti
  • Drivers+
  • 1,937 posts
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
  • Location:Herts/Beds/Bucks
haha it gets through them :o engine felt fine in the 406 though - 205 will just be lighter and more fun :D :D

and george did 3000 miles round europe so cant be THAT bad :D

sorry paul we're spamming your thread :P :(

#37
maxi

maxi
  • Pitcrew
  • 3,003 posts
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
  • Location:Burgess Hill, West Sussex
Garage View Garage

Rich's is a more than DECENT Mi and despite having more bhp on paper he couldn't show George's v6 a clean pair of heels according to reports.

A 'standard' Mi would be left for dust by a v6.



Has anyone ever put a good std gti6 or mi up against richs car? I am just wondering if people ar going to be pleasently suprised with how the V6 goes thats all???

Maxi

#38
DrSarty

DrSarty
  • Drivers
  • 4,983 posts
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
  • Name:Rich
  • Location:Peterborough
Garage View Garage
I'm not entering this to start that 'godforsaken abortion of an argument' BHP versus torque, because as I always said, it is not an argument I ever supported. It is simply not a case of one or the other as they are both totally and utterly linked. But you cannot have horse power without torque: fact.

I don't think you should comment on torque like that though Adam in these terms because that is what your engine produces, and naff all else bar heat and noise. It's only when you measure the rate of work possible that BHP is totally relevant as is explained in the pretty decent document I've attached.

So just to clarify, I am not and will not argue about one or the other being 'better', because it's ridiculous. It's all about the shape of the torque curve.

To that end, I can testify and support anyone saying that in a straight line squirt, the V6 is extremely rapid and I believe it will trounce most 4 pots, especially N/A. Handling I cannot comment on but I assume you are talking over a variety of tests, standing starts and roll-ons which one will outperform the other (?).

Side by side at about 50MPH, in a 4th gear roll-on, foot hard down up to over a 100MPH Goliath's V6 and my car were absolutely dead level. We ran out of road space. This is in an instance when the V6 had about 25-20BHP less than mine, but more or less equal peak torque.

So I agree that gearing is usually critical to access power, as is the conclusion of the attached document.

But in terms of accessible power, my opinion is that the V6 will be the overall quicker car because more torque AND more power is available most of the time. This means a hilarious shove in the back is always there which is the grin factor, hence why I said what I said earlier.

Apart from outright power though, I think there's probably something really unknown and cool about having a little car with a thumping V6 in it. I think the hilarity of this thing absolutely taking off in 5th at 100mph is part of the package of noise and grunt. It doesn't have the highest figures, but it has a juicy fat torque curve which delivers huge amounts of fun in most conditions.

Other engines you have to work at, and this is something I know you love, and I do too.

EDIT>
Just seen your post Ad and yes, they have on ET09 on nice open roads in many comparisons like the V6, such as Wildejon's very quick Mi, standard 1.6, 1.9, S16, 8v turbo (Frank), GTI6 (Capt K) and even Mandic's 405 T16. I was pushing Mandic's car up the road on some pull-out 3rd gear over takes. Even the standard GTI6 was impressive, i.e. it didn't appear to be a huge gap but mine just started pulling away quicker and continued to do so. The V6 however does this even in a higher gear, as you don't have to wait for things to wind up, because the power is already there in the shape of torque.

Attached Files


Edited by DrSarty, 16 July 2009 - 03:29 PM.


#39
Goliath

Goliath
  • Drivers+
  • 1,302 posts
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
  • Name:G
  • Location:Bristol

Has anyone really and seriously compared their V6 205 to a DECENT mi or gti6?

Yes, One the EuroTrip I had a few blasts with wildejon's car which is an S16 (I think!) on bodies and RR'd at 202bhp (not sure on torque figures) and there really wasn't any competition, His S16 does 'bog down' a bit at low revs but een doing high rev roll on's the v6 was still a clear winner.

Do we know any 1/4 mile times?

Nope! Not yet, I hope to get the v6 insured again soon and take it to pod aswell as a couple of trackdays to see how it goes :o

#40
maxi

maxi
  • Pitcrew
  • 3,003 posts
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
  • Location:Burgess Hill, West Sussex
Garage View Garage
So, any progress on this conversion? :o :P :D

This one really is going to be a trend setter, I can see it now. The topic is already stirring the community. Or is that just me with a wooden spoon?

Rich, Its much more fun to knock it down a cog. Thats all I have to say really! Im also well aware of the mathematics involved and the correlation of BHP and torque. An engine is nothing without torque, however, in a light FWD car (such as a 205) with a fragile drivetrain (such as a 205) to deliberately go out and produce torque in excess is such a waste. Give me a reason for wanting a mental amount of torque without using the phrase driveability. 170Ibft torque feels very nice and makes a 205 very driveable. It just seems that I am the only who can see this?

Maxi

Edited by maxi, 16 July 2009 - 05:58 PM.




Reply to this topic