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Ew10 Breather Setup - Catch Tank Over Fill Issue?


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45 replies to this topic

#21
dcc

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Have a look for the solenoid on top of head :)

#22
sam jfm

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Yes - still in place



#23
drmo

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These engines need a stock oil/air separator or like it, retained. The breather on the side of the intake cam ladder and on the exhaust cam cover are both un-baffled, that means that the oil will go directly out when the engine is running in medium to higher revs and overfill the catch can. This is more likely to happen if you get rid of the VVT cam pulley and/or you change hydraulic followers for solid ones.

 

On our race engine we kept stock oil/air separator under the intake manifold and used an aftermarket catch can to vent the fumes from oil/air separator to it. That is the only way the catch can wasn't overfilling.

 

Keeping a stock separator is a problem if you are not using a stock intake manifold as the separator bolts onto it. In this case you need to make a custom separator.



#24
speaksgeek

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Good to know.

Does the separator flow back down to the sump? From memory there is a single ~20mm hose running back into the sump on a stock engine - is that from the intake separator?

If I was to use a catch can with separator built in, I assume that would drain to the sump instead?

 

These engines need a stock oil/air separator or like it, retained. The breather on the side of the intake cam ladder and on the exhaust cam cover are both un-baffled, that means that the oil will go directly out when the engine is running in medium to higher revs and overfill the catch can. This is more likely to happen if you get rid of the VVT cam pulley and/or you change hydraulic followers for solid ones.

 

On our race engine we kept stock oil/air separator under the intake manifold and used an aftermarket catch can to vent the fumes from oil/air separator to it. That is the only way the catch can wasn't overfilling.

 

Keeping a stock separator is a problem if you are not using a stock intake manifold as the separator bolts onto it. In this case you need to make a custom separator.


Edited by speaksgeek, 13 February 2017 - 04:28 AM.


#25
drmo

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Yes, the separator flows the oil back to the sump. The engine is vented from the head, through the intake manifold into the separator. There is a second breather that goes from the back of the cam ladder to the separator. The oil gets separated in the box and the fumes get recycled through the engine, the oil goes back to the sump.

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#26
welshpug

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there really shouldn't be that much oil in the breathers, have you seen the size of the oil drains?!



#27
drmo

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@Welshpug: If you don't drain it back to the sump it fills the catch can in a few seconds in a run on a dyno. The breathers on ew10j4s are not meant to be vented to atmosphere. Most of this problems that I read about are most probably because all of them block the breathers on the head (intake manifold side) and ditch the original separator on the intake manifold, using only one breather on the cam ladder and put it into a catch can. The breather on the side of the cam ladder is not baffled, the rocker cover is not baffled, so the spluttering oil goes through the vent.

 

We sorted this by using stock separator. No problems all season of track days, hill climbs and driving on the road.



#28
Schumi

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If you are running on solid lifters you should decrease inside diameter of oil feed hole to head. Thats suggested buy France engine builders. I cant remember exact figures but I will look. When you using solid lifter lots of unnecessary oil hold by cam galleries on head.



#29
drmo

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Yes, that is correct. Better to have oil where it is needed. Without hydraulic lifters and VVT pulley the head doesn't need so much oil.

 

The talk here is mostly on near standard engines that have these problems. I was addressing these issues for those.

 

BTW Schumi, were you the one that had questions on our FB page about the ITB manifold for the JP4S engine?


Edited by drmo, 13 February 2017 - 02:36 PM.


#30
speaksgeek

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Thank you, this is a very helpful discussion.

 

When I look at the diagram, it's starting to make much more sense.

On the separator, the large diameter connection on the top, is that the air return (after separation) into the intake (and then directly into combustion, after the throttle body). Could that be considered the same as the filtered vent on the top of a catch can?

 

I'm wondering what the direction of airflow is for the T hose marked 1 on the diagram is?

What is the purpose of the inlet marked in red from manifold?

 

Sorry if I seem dense, but the airflow routing seems rather circuitous.  :unsure:

I'm trying to think through what exactly will be needed when replaced with ITB's and a separating catch can. I'm pretty confident I won't be recycling air back into the ITB's?

 

Yes, the separator flows the oil back to the sump. The engine is vented from the head, through the intake manifold into the separator. There is a second breather that goes from the back of the cam ladder to the separator. The oil gets separated in the box and the fumes get recycled through the engine, the oil goes back to the sump.


Edited by speaksgeek, 13 February 2017 - 11:40 PM.


#31
Schumi

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BTW Schumi, were you the one that had questions on our FB page about the ITB manifold for the JP4S engine?

Yes thats me. And as you see on my thread I started to build my own manifold. :) 

http://forum.205gtid...howtopic=169694



#32
drmo

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Thank you, this is a very helpful discussion.

 

When I look at the diagram, it's starting to make much more sense.

On the separator, the large diameter connection on the top, is that the air return (after separation) into the intake (and then directly into combustion, after the throttle body). Could that be considered the same as the filtered vent on the top of a catch can?

 

I'm wondering what the direction of airflow is for the T hose marked 1 on the diagram is?

What is the purpose of the inlet marked in red from manifold?

 

Sorry if I seem dense, but the airflow routing seems rather circuitous.  :unsure:

I'm trying to think through what exactly will be needed when replaced with ITB's and a separating catch can. I'm pretty confident I won't be recycling air back into the ITB's?

 

Maybe this will help better:

 

Put the hoses that go from the separator into the manifold/intake pipe into catch can. Problem solved.

Attached Files



#33
speaksgeek

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Maybe this will help better:

 

Put the hoses that go from the separator into the manifold/intake pipe into catch can. Problem solved.

 

Awesome, thanks.



#34
Schumi

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My plan is get some EW10A cam covers from direct injection version of EW engine. Its very tall comparing others. So maybe that covers baffled. I cant check it because that engine never sold in any car in my country.



#35
sam jfm

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I believe that I have gotten to the bottom of this one!

 

The oil was actually coming back up the sump return hose into the catch tank, filling it and escaping out of the breathable cap. ( I know it sounds unlikely )

 

I tried multiple different configurations of breather pipe and I was still having the same issue. But after putting a bung into the return line it stopped the dramatic oil escape issues and has been fine.

 

Obviously with no return to sump you do get some oil make its way into the catch can.

 

I surmise that under normal load and level conditions it's not a problem, but at high RPM with elevated crankcase pressure and cornering G's it is.The force of cornering moves the oil away from the return hole, exposing it to the increased crank case pressure and any oil in the hose gets forced up the return hose like a whale clearing its blowhole!

 

I can only imagine that the standard setup has some form of check / one way valve in it.

 

I might be wrong, but that's my theory!



#36
speaksgeek

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Good to know, interesting theory.

I will be pulling all this apart soon on mine, so I'll see if I can investigate further and confirm.

 

 

I believe that I have gotten to the bottom of this one!

 

The oil was actually coming back up the sump return hose into the catch tank, filling it and escaping out of the breathable cap. ( I know it sounds unlikely )

 

I tried multiple different configurations of breather pipe and I was still having the same issue. But after putting a bung into the return line it stopped the dramatic oil escape issues and has been fine.

 

I can only imagine that the standard setup has some form of check / one way valve in it.

 

I might be wrong, but that's my theory!



#37
drmo

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Actually it doesn't have a check valve. The separator is just baffled. There is a chance that some of the oil comes up the hose when cornering, as the level drops (that is why a baffle is preferred when using the car on a track).

 

This is a baffle that I made:

[img]http://drive.google....dzFlb1BETnpoRzg[img]

 

[img]http://drive.google....bFhlN3RKbzR6UEU[img]

 

[img]http://drive.google....OXZtNFdFQXZzTFU[img]

 

I have also moved the drain back up as much as I could on the sump. When you do this the hole gets exposed out of oil, which means that if there is pressure in the crankcase it will force the oil back up the hose (this is similar to what happens to original position and cornering without baffled sump). If you do not want this you need to make a proper breathing system.



#38
sam jfm

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That baffled sump looks the business, I will have to get making I think! What have you used to construct it?



#39
drmo

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It is made out of stainless steel sheet. Model was made out of cardboard. It gets the work done, but next one I'll make a proper trap doors out of metal.



#40
speaksgeek

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You can also buy one from Peugeot Sport. They use rubber baffles too.

Not cheap though.