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Aftermarket Ecu On Standard 8V


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#41
ALEX

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Ecosse? :ph34r:

 

 

Don't forget to add the build project in the projects section. Like many on here I would be interested in the results as I'm not too bothered about a large power hike, but I like the idea of a factory looking 8v that runs as smooth as a modern car.



#42
tomcolinjones

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is it emerald that you can fit a switch to change between maps? So you could have a cold start map, economy and power maps?



#43
Anthony

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Yes Emerald has the map switching function on K3/K6 models, but I don't really see the point on an typical N/A car.

Any map should have all the cold start setup on it and power and economy should be doable on a single map given that economy is going to come from the light load areas where you spend most of the time and power from the high-load areas.

More useful on a turbo or similar where you might want a high-boost map or perhaps one with ignition timing pulled back for 95RON fuel usage.

#44
dcc

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not sure about others, but with my DTA it takes roughly 10 seconds to upload and save a map to the ecu using a laptop.

 

Always remember Sandy telling Welshpug and myself that he tends to find the most fuel efficient engines return their best power figures (iirc he has a 220bhp ish 1.6 tu engine in a road going saxo which returns a frequent 40mpg when driven normally).

 

For what it is worth, I have a modified 8v which is mapped by Sandy, when driving to pugfest last year we got it to do roughly 48mpg when driving to the 50mph speedlimit on 1 section of road, when doing 60 on another section we had it doing about 45mpg, and when doign 70 it dropped to about 42mpg iirc. We worked this out as we could see the amount of fuel the injectors were using per hour. funny enough though my engine produces enough torque in the right areas to only need 4% throttle to bob along at 70mph on the flat :)



#45
welshpug

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you dont need more than one map for most n-a engines, just a proper map.

I think the only cases ive seen different maps is for very high output rally engines where they have a wet map, where I believe the ignition curves arent as agressive, possibly a lower rpm limit, but we're talking 2.5 L enginesl which are north of 300 bhp and 200lbft in 2wd cars under 1000 kg.

#46
hoodygoodwood

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I am watching a couple of used MAP sensors on Ebay , for a 106 GTI . I could fit this to the inlet so it is there to be tried if necessary , could be dodgy buying a used one though .Mapping an engine with TPS and MAP sensors would take longer I assume and cost more .

It is interesting that there are a number of people thinking about the same solution to the Bosch jetronics flaws and limitations , I have searched the forums over the years and found very little on this subject . Anthonys post was the main one and I was surprised more had not tried it .

Not sure how far along the others are toward building an engine , I have to finish my Miami resto first but I will be gathering the parts and would hope to have the engine together before the 309 is finished .



#47
welshpug

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you tend to map the ecu with either map or tps as load not both.



#48
petert

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Map blending by TPS and MAP has become quite common on new ECU's, especially on TB engines with big cams. It allows the best of both. Be careful buying sensors which may not match your ECU. Unless your ECU has user definable curves to match resistance with temp., you'll have weird numbers. The GTi6 MAP sensor for example, works in reverse to most other MAP sensors. If you buy a quality ECU you can use any sensor.

#49
Miles

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I see that type of wiring all the time and the price charged for a well 'job' is I leave that to your imagination, Same as we know for Alarm installations.

One of those things where a company try's to do it all and no one can have that much experience at the end of the day, Thats the reason I don;t do a few things and outsource it along with being more cost effective too

 

1 bar map sensor from Omex retails around £90.00, The other that may work 106 1.3 Rallye as it's the same type (Never checked thou) and no doubt a few other's.

I know a mate of mine is off to see Sandy from Pamers Green as he's tried most around him which have all been poor



#50
hoodygoodwood

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On Miles' recommendation have had a look at the Omex and DTA websites , I have hardly heard of DTA so would probably choose Omex .Their 600 series ECU seems to have all the functionality needed , it does say TPS or MAP for load though so it will have to be one or the other . Their basic loom seems good value at £60 .Would the injectors still be batch fired , I assume sequential would be for more highly modified engines ?
Would the ECU normally be mounted in a plastic box next to the battery as on more modern engine bays or inside the car .
Looking for a 1.6 bottom end now to pinch the pistons from .

#51
Anthony

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You can mount the ECU wherever you like given that you'll need a loom making up for your particular application anyway.

On the 8v I did I mounted it in the standard position, but equally I've done looms for people before to mount the ECU in a 306 style battery box or inside the car on the passenger side (running the loom in under the expansion tank). The biggest issue mounting the ECU in the standard position is that depending on the exhaust manifold, you can get heat damage to the loom near the bulkhead where it runs close to the manifold - not too much of an issue with an 8v though compared to say a GTi-6.

With regards ECU choice, it would be worth considering who you want to do the mapping as some mappers will prefer one ECU over another. DTA ECU's are probably one of the most popular ECU's used by people on this forum, typically the S40.

#52
opticaltrigger

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Their 600 series ECU seems to have all the functionality needed , it does say TPS or MAP for load though so it will have to be one or the other . Their basic loom seems good value at £60 .Would the injectors still be batch fired , I assume sequential would be for more highly modified engines ?
 

The injectors would be batch fire unless you install a cam sensor too. That is assuming that the controller you mention suports fully sequential.

 

Lucas did a tremendous amount of very high quality research, many years ago, into the benifits of having sequential injection over batch fired and the findings seemed to show that there wasn't really anything special to be had from it.

However it has to be said, that research was done before the pressent digital age.

If a combination of fully sequential ignition and fuel injection was adopted, then with some serious maping of the injection and ignition angles it should be possible in theory to make some small gains over batch fired throughout the range. (Possibly..???) .....   The emisions would be improved undoubtedly though.

 

All the best

O.T.



#53
hoodygoodwood

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The more expensive Omex 710 ECU can sequentialy fire the injectors but it is over £1000 .I was just curious to see if anyone had tried sequential over batch and found large gains .An Omex 600 or DTA S40 seem to be the popular choice .
A friend has a spare 1.6 bottom end so I need to do some forum searches on 1.6 pistons into a 1.9 engine .

#54
petert

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Wouldn't it be multipoint? Not batch? Batch fires in pairs. The gains with sequential come in mid range torque, not total hp. At full noise, regardless of the injection type, the injectors are open almost all the time. It's not easy to add a cam (or home) sensor to an 8V.


Edited by petert, 15 April 2015 - 01:36 AM.


#55
hoodygoodwood

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The engine I have at the back of my garage for this build has not been run properly for many years , I will get it apart in the next few weeks to make sure the block is sound . There seem to be a lot of corrosion problems coming through the crankcase at liner 'O' ring seal level .
The Piper website shows a 30 BHP gain for its BP285 cam profile which seems a bit optimistic and their price for 8 new tappets is scary , do FAI or similar still do them , I will have to check when I am getting my new liners , rings etc for my Miami project .

#56
welshpug

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30bhp from the 285 is probably attainable, only if compression ratio and air&fuel demands are met, I believe that gain stated is for carbs or itb's.

#57
hoodygoodwood

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I have bought a Cosworth air temp sensor from Ebay and received a used 106 GTI MAP sensor this week ( for 99p ) which I might fit to the inlet manifold as well just in case I ever want to try that option . Will probably put both at the other end of the plenum near the core plug .
I should have an early GTI inlet manifold and TB winging its way to me shortly , provided by DCC on here .Will be dowelling it to the head then matching the ports so there are no steps in the airflow .
Made a start stripping down the engine which I will be using for this build , all the headbolts came out ok which was a result after breaking one in my Miami block 2 weeks ago and will hope to have it in bits soon .

#58
hoodygoodwood

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Won a 1.6 short engine on Ebay today , will be using its pistons in this new engine .

#59
hoodygoodwood

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Have just been looking at jimmi's underbonnet set up in Ireland and he has an 8v on Emerald which has retained the dizzy and coil on inner wing using the hall effect as the ignition trigger . I had assumed that for proper spark control and mappability I would have to use a coil pack and appropriate leads , half the reason for trying the aftermarket ECU was to keep the std underbonnet look so I would keep the dizzy if possible .I suppose The vacuum advance would be disconnected and the mechanical advance locked solid then could I use either the 'hall effect' or a GTI6 flywheel and pickup for the ignition signal .
So what I am asking is would it compromise the engine to retain the dizzy to distribute the spark if I had a fully mapped ignition curve from the Omex ECU .
Thanks

#60
jackherer

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As Miles said on page 1, you need to use a VW Golf Mk2 16v distributor for its hall effect sensor, the 205 one isn't suitable. It used to be a common way of doing it back in the day before cheap wasted spark coilpacks were easily available.