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Aftermarket Ecu On Standard 8V


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#161
TAG

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Miles, apologies if i've missed it, but where have you got the cam timing?

#162
hoodygoodwood

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Hi Matteo , our engines are a similar spec but I have standard size valves and porting , the guys who tuned it said head and valve work plus throttle bodies would make a lot more power - around 20/25 BHP . I think your cam has more duration and the throttle body is a bit larger than my standard 49 mm diameter one , its good to see whats possible if I want to make more changes . The induction sounds ok on my engine but the exhaust is too quiet so that may be the thing I change when finances allow , a stainless system made to suit the engine spec would be my choice - I will be looking for recommendations on an exhaust specialist later .
I have been sent the dyno sheet from the rolling road tune , I will put it up later .
Tom , I fitted the Piper 285 cam using a standard pulley and then measured the timing using a DTI mounted on a bracket on the head and a timing disc on the crank . Timing was 3 degrees out iirc so I bought a Piper vernier pulley and used it to set the cam timing to the figure on the Piper spec sheet . It was the first time I have done this so I took great care , the tuners said they would probably have noticed if it was wrong .

#163
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Miles, would you mind walking through how you timed up the engine?

With 1600 pistons, you should have enough compression for that cam. The first thing I would be looking at is checking that the cam is not too far advanced.

I think you initial estimates of 150-155hp are about right for the spec. You mention that it pulls like a train from low down, this also makes me think the cam is too advanced.

 

If you're happy with the engine as-is, then fair enough, but I think there's more to be had with a bit of fettling. 



#164
Matteo

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Hoodygoodwood, my throttle body is a std. one which I had lathed to a slightly  bigger diameter, with a  new plate,  and milled a bit the thick shaft.

I had a huge improvement in performance ones I fitted a full stainless exhaust line 60 mm diameter.



#165
welshpug

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you must be slightly deaf or the car still has a full interior if a magnex is not loud!

 

it was more than large enough for DCC's throttle bodied high compression 1.9, that was running roughly 176 bhp at the flywheel, with a 300 degree newman cam.

 

the BP285 is an 'ultimate road' cam, so would not be far short of the newman rally cam, the piper rally cam is a step further.



#166
Anthony

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you must be slightly deaf or the car still has a full interior if a magnex is not loud!


I've not looked back to see which system Miles has, but certainly the Magnex backbox (standard front section) I had on one of my old 309's was surprisingly quiet - far quieter than a full Magnex system on a 205 anyway!

#167
hoodygoodwood

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The 309 has a full Magnex manifold and system for a 309 GTI , its noisy in the sense that all tubular manifolds are noisy because they are made of thin tube that does not deaden the noise like a standard cast manifold and thick steel tube downpipe does . I was talking about the exhaust noise from the exhaust exit , after hearing the Milltek stainless system on their 205 GTI demonstrator at FCS last year I know how I want it to sound . The car has a full interior - Goodwood seats and carpet .Induction sound is great with K+N 57i kit , maybe the small mod I made turning down the throttle body spindle ( Like Matteo did )to a smaller diameter has helped here .
I will put up the dyno printout when I suss out how to do it now that Photobucket seems to be a no go .
As for the cam timing I had the assembled engine on my stand in my kitchen , I fitted a Newman cams timing disc to my crank pulley and rigged up a pointer out of sturdy wire . I used a dial test indicator ( DTI ) mounted on a plate bolted to an inlet manifold bolt , with an extended plunger to reach down through the spark plug hole . Now before any one says how easy it is to find TDC they should remember this is not a 4 valve per cylinder engine with a central plug hole that you can drop your DTI down onto the piston through , the angle that you need to have on the DTI means the contact point drags across the face of the piston as you wind it up and down . Because of the dwell at the top of the stroke its normal to swing 20 degress or whatever either side of TDC to help find it but the angle and drag plus the fact that the I do not think the piston face is dead flat means its tricky , I did it at least 15 times till I was happy I had TDC correct . I then moved my DTI to the appropriate cam follower and cycling the engine read off what degree I had full lift at . I am at work so do not have my notes to hand but I then used the vernier to adjust the timing till it was as stated on the Piper spec sheet .I did try relating flywheel marks to the timing plate but they were well out for some reason .
As careful as I was doing all this I did ask the tuners if they thought I may have got it wrong and they said it all looked good .
I was expecting a little more BHP I suppose but if I am reading the sheet correctly I have at least 115 Lb/ft of torque from 2100 rpm to 6400 rpm which makes it nice to drive .

#168
welshpug

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your figures sound like wheel numbers, flywheel torque on a standard 1.9 is more than 115, so 140 bhp at the wheels is a good result.



#169
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The 309 has a full Magnex manifold and system for a 309 GTI , its noisy in the sense that all tubular manifolds are noisy because they are made of thin tube that does not deaden the noise like a standard cast manifold and thick steel tube downpipe does . I was talking about the exhaust noise from the exhaust exit , after hearing the Milltek stainless system on their 205 GTI demonstrator at FCS last year I know how I want it to sound . The car has a full interior - Goodwood seats and carpet .Induction sound is great with K+N 57i kit , maybe the small mod I made turning down the throttle body spindle ( Like Matteo did )to a smaller diameter has helped here .
I will put up the dyno printout when I suss out how to do it now that Photobucket seems to be a no go .
As for the cam timing I had the assembled engine on my stand in my kitchen , I fitted a Newman cams timing disc to my crank pulley and rigged up a pointer out of sturdy wire . I used a dial test indicator ( DTI ) mounted on a plate bolted to an inlet manifold bolt , with an extended plunger to reach down through the spark plug hole . Now before any one says how easy it is to find TDC they should remember this is not a 4 valve per cylinder engine with a central plug hole that you can drop your DTI down onto the piston through , the angle that you need to have on the DTI means the contact point drags across the face of the piston as you wind it up and down . Because of the dwell at the top of the stroke its normal to swing 20 degress or whatever either side of TDC to help find it but the angle and drag plus the fact that the I do not think the piston face is dead flat means its tricky , I did it at least 15 times till I was happy I had TDC correct . I then moved my DTI to the appropriate cam follower and cycling the engine read off what degree I had full lift at . I am at work so do not have my notes to hand but I then used the vernier to adjust the timing till it was as stated on the Piper spec sheet .I did try relating flywheel marks to the timing plate but they were well out for some reason .
As careful as I was doing all this I did ask the tuners if they thought I may have got it wrong and they said it all looked good .
I was expecting a little more BHP I suppose but if I am reading the sheet correctly I have at least 115 Lb/ft of torque from 2100 rpm to 6400 rpm which makes it nice to drive .

 

Miles, if you rotate the crank until all of the timing pins line up, that should be 90 deg before tdc on cyl 1+4. Shortly after this, Cyl4 inlet cam should just be starting to come off the back of the lobe and start pressing on the bucket.

 

If you are curious about re-measuring what you have the cam timed at, rotate crank until the timing pins line up, and fit your timing disc with the pointer showing 90deg btdc.

I think this will eliminate any (possible) error you will have trying to determine TDC with poking things down the offset plug hole. There will be a surprising amount of dwell on the piston near TDC that may throw your readings off.

 

With TDC now marked up on your timing disc, you can have a look at what the cam is doing.

Again, there will be a few degrees dwell on the peak of the cam lobe that can mean that simply rotating the crank and watching for the minimum DTI reading will be trickier than it at first seems.

When I timed up my mi16 with non-standard cams, I knew I had 9.65mm peak lift, so elected to take crank angle readings with the DTI showing 1mm, 2mm, 3mm and 4mm. The crank angle readings were taken on both the valve opening and valve closing side of the peak. Adding each reading (1mm before and 1mm after, 2mm before and 2mm after etc) together and dividing by two should give the crank angle at peak lift.

Using this method, all of my crank angles came out within half a degree of each other, meaning I am fairly confident I've got the cam where I want it.

 

As I said earlier, if you are happy with your engine, by all means enjoy it. But if you are interested in double checking where you have the cam set, perhaps it would be worth giving this method a try. I'd be keen to hear how you get on.

 

If anything I've written is unclear, let me know,

Thanks,

Tom



#170
hoodygoodwood

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When I fitted my engine to the machine mart stand there was no room for the flywheel to be fitted , by the time I had built up the engine and was timing the cam I decided it would be useful to fit the flywheel so I could use the timing plate as another reference for TDC . I made some spacers for the 4 bolts on the stand which allowed me to get the flywheel in . Its a GTI6 flywheel so the normal timing plate fouled it so I bent it a little and made a manual mark on it for TDC once I found it ( none of the original marks on either lined up at TDC ) . If I was doing it all again I would fit the flywheel to the short engine and use the DTI direct on the piston crown then set the pointer on the cam timing disc and make a permanent mark on the timing plate/flywheel as a belt and braces approach .
As you say there is the dwell issue both for piston at top of stroke and cam lobe at full lift which has to be worked round .I never considered using the timing pin holes as I have always found the 10 mm dowel to be a sloppy fit and what with manufacturers tolerances on the machined surfaces I assumed it would not be reliable , I have found every crank pulley to have a bit of clearance on its fit with the woodruff key .
The car is basically finished but no doubt I will be making changes to it over the years , an exhaust will probably be first .

#171
hoodygoodwood

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http://s928.photobuc...html?sort=3&o=0

Sorry its a dodgy link but photobucket does seem to be working .
As you can see maximum power is 140.1 BHP at 6200 rpm , torque is 131.5 lb/ft at 4500 rpm .
Standard 1.9 GTI is 130 BHP at 6000 rpm and 119 lb/ft at 4750 rpm .
Have checked with the tuner and these are calculated flywheel figures not at the wheels .

Edited by hoodygoodwood, 05 July 2017 - 09:11 PM.


#172
Miles

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It's about right from building these in various spec's, the std inlet manifold isn't great with a 285 cam, With bodies they make around 150>160 bhp, also the K tec roller's are realistic generally and have had a few car's on other RR days find a extra 10bhp out of thin air.  As we know Figure's mean little its how it drives

 

The exhaust is fine, A mates little used Race car has a magnex manifold and makes over 200bhp, give it some use the the baffles will fall out of the box's as Magnex systems do so will become allot louder.



#173
hoodygoodwood

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Spoke too soon with the Photobucket account , will put the dyno graph up once I sort out another way of doing it .
The 309 is still going well , looking forward to the long drive up to Donnington for FCS this weekend .

#174
Miles

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Graph from the RR

Attached Files



#175
hoodygoodwood

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This is the finished engine bay , engine is run in now , gave it a checkover and top up recently and all is well .
36843374186_dd1368d365_k.jpgDSCN1818 by MILES HOOD, on Flickr

#176
AlexRS2782

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That's a lovely looking engine bay B)