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Hdi 2.0 Running Issues


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9 replies to this topic

#1
Clarky3rdNut

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A friend of mine is having trouble with his mothers old 306 HDI. He has tried a multitude of things without success so I have offered to ask the experts on here. Hope that's ok.

Full description as follows:


Peugeot 306 HDI 2lt Diesel V reg. 1999

Symptoms commenced after MOT where some hard revving was undertaken to achieve emissions standard although this may be completely un related:
Essentially the car will start idle for a brief period of about 15 seconds or less and then stop. If the accelerator is held at high revs ( about 2000RPM) then the car will remaining running for a few minutes but then stop. The car will not restart immediately but needs a few minutes before it will then restart.

Initial diagnostics indicated synchronisation issues suggesting stretched cam belt and or cam/crack sensors. Crank and cam sensors changed for new same problem. Engine retimed with pin in flywheel and cam and cambelt changed and timing pins reinserted after rotating engine i.e. double checked. There is No timing mark/pin for injection pump but alignment was maintained with old /new belt.
Old cam/crank sensors replaced just to check - same problem persists. Various combinations of new/old sensors tried in case one or other new/old was faulty problem persists.

In tank fuel pump suspected. Pump primes with ignition on and then shuts off (as it should) and restarts when engine started (as it should). Pump runs at all times when engine is running i.e. it does not shut off prematurely. Pump given independent live supply in case pump relay was faulty and shutting off and causing feedback loop. Problem persists.

Code P0407 indicates EGR issue. Solenoid resistance checked with two other spares and shown to be the same. Sucking on the EGR vacuum pipe does seem to move the push rod ( verified by feel only) so reasonably certain EGR valve is not stuck open/closed. Fairly certain if solenoid was the issue then car would still run if EGR not actuating.

Fuel filter checked ok.

CAT sounds solid so reasonably certain has not melted/fallen to bits and is thus not blocking exhaust.

Jump lead attached to block and negative terminal to verify engine properly earthed. Issue persists. Other earth leads loosened/retightened. Issue persists.

Diagnostics are indicating codes P1138 and P0230. Fuel rail pressure has not been checked nor have sensors on injection pump or fuel rail been swapped for new as yet need to investigate these issues. I have read that there is a really fine filter before injection pump that can become blocked have not investigated this yet but as car will run at high revs without shutting down immediately then I am not convinced this is the problem happy for suggestions.

Engine management light on dashboard is on.
Engine sounds sweet (smooth as normal) when it is actually running. It will drive in short busts (held at high revs) and made it up a fairly big hill.. before stopping as soon as revs dropped.

Suspect ECU has developed fault but any suggestions are welcome as running out of ideas.

#2
welshpug

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both p0230 and p1138 are fuel pressure related, however are you using a generic reader or a Peugeot specific tool?

#3
Anthony

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FYI the HP pump isn't timed on these, hence no timing mark. Just need to make sure the flywheel and cam are timed up.

You really need to get PP2000 on it and view the live data to see what's happening, it's just guesswork if you only have generic codes.

Faulty/dirty FPR is what usually seems to give grief on these, but your symptoms don't sound right for that.

Does it still have full power whilst it's running, or is it well down on power and/or in limp mode (limited at 2200rpm and feels like no boost)?

#4
Clarky3rdNut

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Thanks for the responses chaps.

both p0230 and p1138 are fuel pressure related, however are you using a generic reader or a Peugeot specific tool?


The diagnostic kit was (I think) autologic It is generic diagnostic kit but has specific Peugeot programmes. It would not yield pressure values though.

FYI the HP pump isn't timed on these, hence no timing mark. Just need to make sure the flywheel and cam are timed up.

You really need to get PP2000 on it and view the live data to see what's happening, it's just guesswork if you only have generic codes.

Faulty/dirty FPR is what usually seems to give grief on these, but your symptoms don't sound right for that.

Does it still have full power whilst it's running, or is it well down on power and/or in limp mode (limited at 2200rpm and feels like no boost)?


Has full power when running - went up steep hill in second at about 2750 to 3000RPM but soon as I had to drop speed and thus RPM (to do sharp turn) she died. There is no coughing or spluttering it is just like you have switch off ignition when it dies. I will look at Fuel Pressure Relief next (will be after work).

#5
allye

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Can almost garuantee that's the low pressure pump, just because its priming and running does not mean it's working correctly. Another good mod To do on these if the extra earth for the TPS and MAF, there's a guide some where.

The symptoms you describe are incredibly similar to what I had, earth mod, new LP pump and it was fine.

#6
pug_ham

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I'd remove the intank lift pump, strip it out of the plastic housing & check the filter / strainer on the bottom as they can clog if you've had dirty fuel through it.

 

Also, how recent is the fuel filter?  You say checked ok but tbh they are cheap enough so if you've gone to the extent of looking at it, for the sake of a few quid I'd have replaced it.

 

I agree with the above comments about getting it on planet, this is the best way to get a true read of all the codes.

 

g



#7
Clarky3rdNut

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Many thanks all for your responses.

Here is the latest from my colleague. I have explained that PP is Peugeot Planet. Would he need to visit a Peugeot dealer to obtain access to this?

The solenoid on top of the high pressure injection pump and the Fuel Pressure Relief valve have both been taken out and although not visibly dirty/clogged have been given a good blast with brake cleaner. The problem persists.
I do not have access to PP2000? and getting the car to an expensive garage for diagnosis that does have the kit but would be a pain. Will it diagnose duff ecu or just indicate symptoms and no definite cause???? It should provide fuel pressures but again that could be the pump or sensors I will order new in tank fuel pump and see what happens after fitting. Will also fit new fuel filter just did not have one last Saturday when the fun began.

From engine cold, if held at 1750RPM or more that car seems to run fine and does not cut out, as soon as revs drop below this it dies and will not restart for few minutes. After a bit of starting/stopping (itself) and thus after engine temp had risen she would hold running at about 1000rpm but as soon as all accelerator removed totally, i.e. idle speed, she died. Is there a feed back loop for temperature/extra fuelling? Is there a throttle position sensor that would cause this problem or do these tend to fail or work i.e. 100% broken/100% work?... I suspect the TPS is variable resistor (of sorts) so might be a potential issue but would have thought that idle speed would be set mechanically with accelerator TPS kicking in as soon as depressed Or is it controlled by the ECU? If controlled by the ECU then does this not point to ECU issue rather than the fuel pump? If mechanically set then this could/would point to fuel supply system issue.
Thoughts on postcard please.

What is involved with ECU change? Do I need key fob as well do I also need dashboard? Or could I buy unlocked ECU - think this means I can retain existing key/fob etc? The car has been locked/unlocked by key for about 2 years after the key experienced a washing machine so remote lock/unlock does not work. As car has run/does run then am certain immobiliser is not the problem.

#8
welshpug

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I highly doubt you have any fault with the ecu.

 

there is a throttle position sensor, its in the middle of the engine bay with a cable!  wiring issues are relatively common especially sensor earths.

 

as for access to peugeot diagnostics there are many enthusiasts about with knockoff copies, as well as independent specialists, so you don't have to go to a dealer, you may have more luck posting on the 306 owners club fourm  ( 306oc )  and may find someone fairly local to you.

 

if you can get to read the rail pressures you can compare against expected values.



#9
Anthony

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To replace the ECU you need a matching ECU, key and BSI (not strictly speaking a BSI but it's what everyone calls it - it's housed at the bottom of the centre console)

I agree with Mei though - doesn't sound like an ECU fault. Sounds like a fuel system issue somewhere, but that doesn't really narrow it down and the fault codes are fairly vague as you've discovered - hence suggesting PP2000 which gives you a lot more information.

I don't believe that a TPS related issue is causing this, particularly if no TPS related codes are being flagged.

If you get really stuck, I think I've got a spare early ECU set, TPS, MAF, injection relay and LP (in-tank) pump here in Swindon. I don't think I'm likely to be heading over Corsham way any time soon though.

#10
alync406

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I would suspect this could be a faulty fuel pressure regulator in the high pressure pump. Was a common enough problem. You should try get one, even second hand to see if it makes a difference.