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Power Steering Properties


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20 replies to this topic

#1
B1ack_Mi16

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Ok.

 

My 405 T16 in silly heavy on the steering wheel even though I have PAS running on it.

 

Are there a big difference between different PAS pumps in how heavy it will be on the steering? Flow / pressure differences?

Maybe the cylinder needs to be bigger?

 

I've got no clue, but it would be nice to get a 407 / 5008 feeling on the steering wheel instead of un-servoed feel it does have today. It is even stiff when driving along, might it be the servo actually restricts movement during driving due to too little flow compared to the cylinder size?



#2
wicked

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The pressure differs per car. The electric pump of a 106 works steady around 80 bars, where as the electric pump of a 307 (is adaptive) can go up to 110 bars. 

Most modern cars have adaptive pressure/force to have light steering at low speed and less at high speed.

This is controlled by an ECU based on vehicle speed, rpm etc.

Probably you're looking for a similar system. The older stuff has just one setting that should work on every condition, so cannot be too powerful. 


Edited by wicked, 31 August 2017 - 07:32 AM.


#3
B1ack_Mi16

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Yes... but would one be able to control a 307 pump with simple speed input from a MS3 Pro ECU or do it need something more advanced?



#4
wicked

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Maybe... But it takes probably a working 307 to analyze how it really works.

http://hr-ev.blogspo...r-steering.html

 

My guess would be that the ABS wire(4) gives speed info by means of toggling signal (frequency related with speed) and will reduce pressure. 



#5
petert

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Duty cycle vrs speed table?



#6
B1ack_Mi16

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Ok seem easy enough just to get it running. I could possibly do with it running on full power.

 

But maybe my real problem is just that I used a 8mm OD pipe when hooking my PAS pump to the rack?

I guess it is only 6mm ID, but some of the orignal PAS pipes are also 8mm OD afaik, whereas some 406 ones are maybe 10mm...



#7
welshpug

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maybe you are getting Old Kristian? :P    I didn't like the disconnected feel of the 407, you couldn't tell where the front was, I love the 405, you know where the front is and what its doing.

 

there are different size pas pump pulleys used on the XU's and XUD's, maybe you don't have the correct one?

 

 

one thought if it is excessively stiff is that the steering wheel may be binding against the top of the steering column, slacken the bolt on the upper UJ clamp and tug the wheel up to see if this makes any difference.

 

also check the joints in the lower column, these can seize up making steering very hard too,   I guess all the balljoints etc are now new?



#8
B1ack_Mi16

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Yes it turns completely freely when off ground, nothing is sticking.

 

I remember my old Mi16 also beeing quite stiff, but wuth some 100 extra kg's over the front wheels the T16 takes the cake.

The 205 is much better but of course lot less weight.

 

All joints are new etc so it is all down to servo operation/functionality. The pump pulley diameter seem to be normal petrol engine one, but I'm not really sure what car the pump comes from.



#9
welshpug

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it does appear that the T16 does have a specific pump but as usual there's not much detail other than that.



#10
B1ack_Mi16

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Yes I know, T16 has actual adaptive PAS from factory, not sure how it works.

 

But I don't have a T16 PAS pump, that is for sure, and I'm not sure how the adaptivity is implemented, but I would guess it's not part of the pump itself, rather some pressure bleed valve or so somewhere on the high pressure piping.

But don't have the orginal piping either.



#11
wicked

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Duty cycle vrs speed table?

 

Could also be the case. 



#12
Miles

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I tend to use the 306 GTi pump on everything bar the 8v these days, works well and have done the same on the T16 I'm fitting into a 205 too



#13
B1ack_Mi16

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Ok, is that a higher pressure pump than a regular 405 pump?

 

The 306 at least have approx the same front end weight as the 405 T16 if I'm not totally off.



#14
welshpug

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as a phase 2 MI16 maybe, but not a T16, turbo and the ME5 box add a fair bit of weight I would imagine, and that transfer case.



#15
B1ack_Mi16

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I see it's registered with total weight of 1450kgs without driver.. so your're probably right.

 

I put 306 GTi springs on it and it is a bit high though.



#16
wicked

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Have a look at the TRW database:

https://www.trwafter...oductGroupId=12

 

Most 306 and 405 pumps are 80 bar. For the GTI pump no pressure is given, but could be higher.

A lot of 406 pumps are 100bar and the 406 3.0 V6 is 110 bar. These are probably easier to find in Norway. 



#17
B1ack_Mi16

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Ok, thanks. Maybe a 406 V6 one might be the solution then!

 

I found the orginal T16 pump number is 400788 but haven't found the operating pressure yet.



#18
welshpug

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yes, I was thinking a 2.0 16v 406 would be closer, these should be easy to fit, not sure the V6 one would be but I don't think it is vastly different.

 

 

you haven't changed your crank pulley for something smaller have you?   not likely on that engine but its a thought!



#19
B1ack_Mi16

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No standard 1.9 Mi16 bottom pulley setup on it :)



#20
wicked

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The pump on the right side is the one I'll put on my GTI.

It's from a 406 2.0 (4007L7) and looks pretty similar to the 306 GTI pump. Left one is the newer type 406 irc. 

Both are labeled 100 bars, but the pulley size differs. So just looking at the pump is also a way to find out  ;)

540.jpg


Edited by wicked, 01 September 2017 - 12:07 PM.