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Time-Serts


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18 replies to this topic

#1
Alan_M

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Has anyone on here got experience of using Time-Serts, particularly on BMW alloy blocks?

 

Looks as though the rad fan gave up on my cheap 330 (it worked when I bought it!), and consequently overheated in rush-hour traffic. Light came on so immediately pulled over and stopped the engine. A compression test is telling me 195-125-125-195-185-195...bugger.

 

So I've a few choices, scrap the car (just had the rear cradle bushes replaced!), fit a new engine (lottery) or fix this one. Some have reported positive results with Time-Serts, some not. Seems to be a common thing that the ones with success replaced all the threads with Time-Serts, not just the odd one or two. I cannot see why they wouldn't work. Only thing is the BMW Time-Sert kit from the States is going to cost me £500 with import taxes and duty. Not fancying that, so looking into getting a guide plate made up by my friendly machinist.

 

Any on here with experience?



#2
welshpug

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not sure why you are jumping straight to thread inserts from a headgasket failure?



#3
Alan_M

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The alloy blocks, particularly M54B30 ones, tend to pull the threads when removing the headbolts after overheating.



#4
toolie72

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Could helicoils not work-admittedly they're better looked at as a one shot deal (anymore is a bonus) but the kits are cheap if bought on eBay. We used to build machines and all alloy stations had helicoils fitted at manufacture just to save down time later in life if parts were being changed-important to do them right-but that's the same with everything

Remember it is not the full depth of the thread that is in contact-if viewed as a triangle it's only one point on the hypotenuse that touches the corresponding point-that's why fine threads go tighter than coarse ones-more bite points per inch

#5
Anthony

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The alloy blocks, particularly M54B30 ones, tend to pull the threads when removing the headbolts after overheating.


Do the threads obviously fail on undoing the headbolts or does it only come to light when torquing up the new ones?

If it's the former then you might as well crack off the bolts and pull the head off before worrying too much, as you've nothing really to lose other than rendering the car immobile (your neighbours are going to love you!)

So I've a few choices, scrap the car (just had the rear cradle bushes replaced!), fit a new engine (lottery) or fix this one.


d) Stop messing around with this Germanic nonsense and fix the 205? :P

#6
Tom Fenton

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Helicoils work fine on alloy XU's and that is even with the +300 degrees angle tightening and stretch bolts.

Personally I'd helicoil it and have total faith in the repair.

Either use a flat plate bolted to the block and a rotabroach, or a drill guide and pistol drill, to ensure you drill them out square.

#7
Alan_M

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The problem is so common that BMW themselves issued a statement regarding the M54B30, stating exactly as you suggest Anthony. Before removing the head, loosen the headbolts then try re-tightening them. If they pull, find a new block/engine.

 

Pretty much my plan, as I've nothing to lose. I'm just trying to plan ahead....

 

Whilst I have experience of Heli-Coils through work, they're strangely frowned upon for this fix where most prefer the Time-Serts.



#8
Alan_M

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The problem is so common that BMW themselves issued a statement regarding the M54B30, stating exactly as you suggest Anthony. Before removing the head, loosen the headbolts then try re-tightening them. If they pull, find a new block/engine.

 

Pretty much my plan, as I've nothing to lose. I'm just trying to plan ahead....

 

Whilst I have experience of Heli-Coils through work, they're strangely frowned upon for this fix where most prefer the Time-Serts.

 

Do the threads obviously fail on undoing the headbolts or does it only come to light when torquing up the new ones?

If it's the former then you might as well crack off the bolts and pull the head off before worrying too much, as you've nothing really to lose other than rendering the car immobile (your neighbours are going to love you!)


d) Stop messing around with this Germanic nonsense and fix the 205? :P

 

If I get it fixed, I implore you to take it for a spin......the straight-six is glorious.



#9
allanallen

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Either use a flat plate bolted to the block and a rotabroach, or a drill guide and pistol drill, to ensure you drill them out square.


Real men do it by eye :P

#10
Chris H

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i have used time serts on blocks before and allways worked well. 

 

Personally i'd always prefer a time sert over a helicoil as the are more reliable and easier to fit.



#11
Alan_M

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A bit more reading suggests it depends on how overheated the block is. If you immediately knock the engine off after overheating, some haven't needed to timesert. Then there are those who properly cooked their car and not even timeserts hold. Something to do with the a chemical reaction within the alloy once overheated apparently.......

 

With the result from the States this morning, that TimeSert kit may not be so expensive after all!



#12
Tom Fenton

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I've just looked out of interest at the Timesert kit. How much! F*** that. I'd be helicoiling it. If that doesn't work then suck it up and buy the Big-sert kit. But if helicoils work on Peugeot blocks (which they do, I've done a few) then I can see no reason why they won't work on a Beemer.

#13
welshpug

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you can do time serts a lot cheaper if you dont get one with 'bmw' in the title but you wont get the guides.

£108 -

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121665138021

and £23 for the 15 inserts

#14
Miles

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I always try and use Timeserts, better than a Helicoil, Mine come from Wurth but loads of other suppliers, Not seen the BM kit but unless it's deep down in the block would be the only reason for needing one

 

Good old German engineering at it's finest again, would have thought issues like this would be long gone



#15
Biggles

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Head gasket isn't a service item so being able to change it without scrapping the block would not in the design brief.  ('Tis a bit piss poor I agree.)



#16
Ramigojag

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If there genuine Wurth time seats they will be fine. Very solid and will hold in alloy no problem.

#17
Alan_M

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Looks as though the threads aren't the only thing to go wrong. The ally heads are obviously susceptable to warping, but also the ally block. The liners sink too (anyone heard that before?).

 

Got plenty of time on my hands for the next few months by the looks of things, so once I can put weight back on my busted leg I can get cracking with this. Might yank the whole engine and rebuild it.



#18
tartanbloke

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Looks as though the threads aren't the only thing to go wrong. The ally heads are obviously susceptable to warping, but also the ally block. The liners sink too (anyone heard that before?).

 

Got plenty of time on my hands for the next few months by the looks of things, so once I can put weight back on my busted leg I can get cracking with this. Might yank the whole engine and rebuild it.

 

Yep - 4.6 V8 Range Rover Alloy Engine blocks. When overheated, the liners drop causing coolant to be released into the combustion process and lets not even talk about 1.8 head gasket issues.........



#19
opticaltrigger

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Helicoils work fine on alloy XU's and that is even with the +300 degrees angle tightening and stretch bolts.

Personally I'd helicoil it and have total faith in the repair.

Either use a flat plate bolted to the block and a rotabroach, or a drill guide and pistol drill, to ensure you drill them out square.

 

Real men do it by eye :P

 

Ahh.........The good old Sert vs heli discussion.

Personally I cant see any down side to Helicoils either. I've used "V-coils,Helicoils,Time-serts, and just about every other re-thread method going over the years and honestly,I cant see much in it really.

I've come to the conclusion (a personal one,that is) that Time-serts are undeniably a more refined form of re-thread over the coil method...BUT!, that's all they are,a slightly more refined version.However that said there are some applications where serts are more suitable than coils but I've yet to find a situation where serts are hands down better in every way.

 

I'm on the same page as Tom here.It's a personal opinion,but in your situation I would use a set of quality coils and see.The cost / reward ratio just isn't there really.(impo that is)

I can't put it as well as allanallen's great comment puts it,but I did our XU block with V-coils,using eye power and a cordless drill very successfully.And it took the 300 degrees easy.

Personally I think in this paticular application it just comes down to what makes you personally feel happier really.

 

All the very best

O.T.