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bales

Turbo Technics Fueling

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bales

I was wondering if anyone could explain properly how the TT's manage fueling, or more importantly what actually tells the 5th injector to squirt. I assume there is a seperate electronic controller but what does it work on, is there a map sensor, or is it just an airflow sensor that gets its signal straight from the AFM, or is it throttle position etc...

 

Is this a seperate controller that you would have to find second hand, or would some of the later motronic EFI systems be able to run a 5th injector.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

Alex

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welshpug

they run an additional 5th injector and a Map sensor, and also a modified distributor with a larger advance capsule.

 

so the AFM deals with anything up to standard WOT, then the Map sensor controls any additional fuelling required.

 

a very very simple but pretty effective unit, though obviously not up to the standards of a mappable system, I think one of these with a mapped ignition would work well if the budget doesnt stretch to a full management.

 

(I bought a 5th injector controller on a random impulse :) )

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pdd144c

Uses a map sensor and a signal from the dissie.

 

MF2 controller form ERL does the job, I wouldn't buy a TT box, they are prone to failing. Or for the price of management just do it properally.

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bales

I still can't decide between turboing or gti-6 in my car (even though my previous posts may suggest otherwise)

 

The main bit that I am struggling with is that its £1k pretty much to just manage a turbo engine if I do it properly. I know that ecu's are coming down in price now, but by the time you factor in mapping it is close to 1000quid.

 

I would prefer a turbo 8v at the moment but I am trying to look at all the options for acually controlling it, the TT system seems to work relatively well but I know there are big gains to be had to swapping to proper management.

 

I am quite close to shelling out £1300 just on the DP kit as it looks amazingly sexy and is good quality stuff, but then I would have at least the same again on plumbing and the management. Maybe I will just have to get saving, nothings free in this life as people like to say!

 

If I could do a turbo conversion for <£1500 I would do it, but I am struggling to find any secondhand bits at the mo. But a gti-6 with a cam is very tempting for the power and money 180+bhp is pretty tempting considering a good TT only puts out that.

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pdd144c

I've always gone the charged route. My standard 1.9 8v engine with a turbo made 186bhp and 181lb/ft.

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bales
I've always gone the charged route. My standard 1.9 8v engine with a turbo made 186bhp and 181lb/ft.

 

You don't happen to have any old bits left?

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pdd144c

No sorry, sold them all!

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TEKNOPUG

Upto about 185bhp it's probably cheaper with a 16v lump but for any more, you'e better off with a charger.

 

If on a budget, then why use an XU10 lump? Cheap and easy way to 190+ bhp.

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bales

I'm sort of at that awkward budget when I am not trying to do everything on the serious cheap, but can't afford to spend ££'s on an engine, so like half and half.

 

Does anybody know how much the 205parts manifolds are sold for?

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welshpug

if you like a lazier feel (i.e closer to the feel of an 8v) rather than the "nail it" screaming revviness of a 16v xu then a turbo would suit.

 

arent second hand T25 and T28 tubbys relatively easy to get hold of thanks to the Jap tuning world of bolting massive turbos on stuff?

 

turbo will give a handy chunk more torque than a 16v :)

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bales

Haven't seen that many turbo's on ebay and that sort of thing but I am very wary of buying a turbo off ebay for obvious reasons.

 

I could get a gti-6 and enjoy that for a while and then when I get bored of the power and have some more money bolt a turbo on that! :) now that would be quickish!

 

Dont 200sx's have T25 as do sunny gti-r's might have to have a scan over some of their forums.

 

Cheers for the advice so far

 

Alex

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TEKNOPUG

You should be able to get a similar TT set up on an XU9 for around £750 (including the engine and ancilliries) if you buy second hand parts and shop around. Or swap over a couplete XU10 and a few mods for £500.

 

As has been said - it's a different animal to a 16v engine but it will be cheaper and more reliable to go the turbo route if you are looking for 200bhp and beyond.

 

You really need to have a ride in both before you hand over any money.

 

Would you be interested in buying an already converted car?

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bales
You should be able to get a similar TT set up on an XU9 for around £750 (including the engine and ancilliries) if you buy second hand parts and shop around. Or swap over a couplete XU10 and a few mods for £500.

 

As has been said - it's a different animal to a 16v engine but it will be cheaper and more reliable to go the turbo route if you are looking for 200bhp and beyond.

 

You really need to have a ride in both before you hand over any money.

 

Would you be interested in buying an already converted car?

 

I would definately like a ride in a few cars to feel the differences but I don't think that there is many up here in the north area.

 

Whether I would be interested in a converted car is an interesting question. I have always planned to keep my 205 as the way I see it, it is a really good base. Its an F-reg that is a bit tatty on the outside i.e a few dings and stone chips and but no rust. However it is a non-sunroof and it is in very very good nick mechanically, as I say there is not rust anywhere at all and the underside and subframes are all really good. Plus I spent £600 over the summer on a new rear beam and all front suspension components.

 

So I would have to sell my car to afford another, though I would be interested in a full engine.

 

I have just been thinking about things and especially the xu10 option, I would like the option of over 200bhp at some point, and I have always heard that the exhaust manifold is crap on the xu10 and that the turbo is flange specific to the manifold, so interchangability isnt easy.

 

However what got me thinking was that if you put a different turbo and manifold on the xu10 all the plumbing is there and the internals low compression as standard. My question is (and I should really know this as I only finished my mech eng degree in the summer)

 

If you have a bigger turbo and better manifold you are going to flow more air at the equivalent boost level hence more power.....but is the xu10 management works off a MAP sensor then it only reads manifold pressure and not mass flow rate? so would a bigger or more effcient turbo provide the same boost readings to the ecu but provide a higher volume of air and as such cause the car to run lean?

 

I have heard that they can only run to 1 bar as the MAP sensor is rated to that and that the ecu shuts down after that, but whether this can compensate for a greater volume of air I don't know.

 

Anyone else's thoughts on this.

 

(Are you thinking of selling your car Teknopug, or do you know of one for sale?)

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sonofsam
I'm sort of at that awkward budget when I am not trying to do everything on the serious cheap, but can't afford to spend ££'s on an engine, so like half and half.

 

Does anybody know how much the 205parts manifolds are sold for?

 

£280 ish

 

Saw a complete XU10 on a buy it now for £200 recently :o

 

Appently early 200's had T25's, newer ones are T28's

 

Xu10 bits on a Xu9 is looking like a really cheap option @ the moment, for a few people :)

 

If you want cheap fully rebuilt turbo look at T3's. I certainly have..sod the Lag :)

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TEKNOPUG

I think that the XU10 Map sensor can run upto 1.2 bar before it goes into limp home mode. Run a search to get the exact figures. But basically you can fit a different MAP sensor and get the ecu chipped to run more boost. The XU10 manifold and turbo is good for about 190bhp as standard. For more power you will need a better manifold and turbo and ideally proper engine management. It sounds expensive, but compare it to the cost of TB's, inlet manifold and engine management for a 16v and you'll see that you get far more bang for your buck.

 

If you could give us some sort of idea how much you want to spend for the initial conversion and how much you plan to spend in the future, we could give you a better idea of what to consider.

 

As for my car, I am toying with the idea of selling it in the new year as I can't justify keeping it for the sort of limited use that I get out of it. But it depends what sort of price I can get for it as I'd like something equally as quick as a replacement.

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bales

£1.5-2k max preferably less though

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TEKNOPUG

£1500 should be plenty.

 

If you go the XU10 route then you should be able to get a complete engine for £300

Factor another £200 for anciliries, pipes, connectors, minor fabrication etc.

That leaves you a grand for a better manifold and turbo and tweaks to the ecu and fueling to run at higher boost.

Should see you well over 200bhp.

 

This of course based on you doing the work yourself.

If you plan to pay someone else to do it then £1500 probably wont be enough.

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bales

Nah gonna do it all myself, well with my dad too. What can you do to the ecu for additional fuelling, can it be remapped or "chipped", and I guess above 200bhp you would need larger injectors.

 

Maybe I am not looking in the right places but where would you look for turbo's, is there plenty about and I am looking in the wrong places.

 

Also is it dodgy buying second hand turbo's it worries me a bit buying something second hand that is going to spend most of its life spinning round at 200,000rpm. I know you can get them reconditioned but that is about £500 I think. Thanks for your advice so far, I have to say you have convinced me so far with the xu10 option I think it is sounding very achievable.

 

In terms of manifolds for the power I want i.e 200ish bhp not silly power, is there really any massive advantages of the DP equal length manifolds compared to the TT copies. I guess that spool up may be a bit quicker and they may provide a bit better flow at higher revs. But I think personally that 200-220bhp is about the most I want anyway for driveability.

 

Alex

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TEKNOPUG

The TT style one is good for 220bhp+. I haven't seen any back to back comparisons with a DP one.

 

The ECU's can be reprogrammed to cater for more boost and the injectors and fuel pump uprated. Best to go standalone though if you want big power and reliabilty.

 

Second-hand turbo's are pretty much an unknown quantity - you may get lucky and be able to see it running first. Depends on the price as to how big the risk is. It's generally not worth getting them reconditioned as it costs almost as much as a new one from the States.

 

 

If you have run a search on the forum you should be able to find the answers to all your questions.

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bales
£280 ish

 

Saw a complete XU10 on a buy it now for £200 recently :)

 

Appently early 200's had T25's, newer ones are T28's

 

Xu10 bits on a Xu9 is looking like a really cheap option @ the moment, for a few people ;)

 

If you want cheap fully rebuilt turbo look at T3's. I certainly have..sod the Lag :)

 

Just out of interest why do people not use T3 turbo's as I have been looking about a bit and there are a lot about and you can get a rebuilt one for not too much cash. I guess they will be a bit laggier but to be honest they are standard issue on a 1.6 rs turbo so I can't see them struggling at low revs on a 2l engine. I have been in quite a few escort rs turbo's some standard and some modified and they didnt seem massively laggy. Incidentally my friend used to have a very rare grey series 1 rst that was almost concours and that had supposedly 200bhp, which wasn't as much as a lot of owners claimed but by GOD was it quick!! still one of the faster cars I have been in to this date. That scares me slightly as what will a lighter 205 with a genuine 200bhp go like!

 

 

From a quick scan if I can get a xu10 for £300 ish and then get a rebuilt T3 for £200-300 plus say a manifold for another £300. I have seen 2wd cossie intercoolers going for £20 so that leaves a decent chunk for sorting out the fueling.

 

Whether I just go for the KMS and then get it done properly or get the original ecu remapped I don't know, but for a couple of hundred quid I may aswell get the proper management. This is looking really good at the mo, I am going to be on the lookout for an engine straight after christmas in the new year so if anyone nows of any let us know, cheers.

 

Thanks for everyones advice.

 

Alex

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Doof

Keep us posted on whatever you decide, im thinking of going down a very similar route in the near future.

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TEKNOPUG
That scares me slightly as what will a lighter 205 with a genuine 200bhp go like!

 

 

It will be reasonably rapid I would imagine :)

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pdd144c

Fast enough to see off most other cars if driven correctly!

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bales

Just been thinking through a few more aspects of the build, and one problem springs to mind. What do people do about downpipes. If I use a different turbo and manifold, lets say 205 parts and T3 then obviously I am going to have to fabricate some sort of downpipe myself or get one custom made. Does the original TT set up have a special downpipe, or does it have a special piece at the exhaust outlet of the turbo that allows it to bolt up to the standard gti downpipe.

 

I also guess that a T3 will have a different flange to a T25 anf if this is the case, could you merely weld on the different flange (to the exhaust not turbo!) to then fit the standard downpipe.

 

This is obviously a bit confusing to me as at the mo as I have nothing to look at or reference to so it is all merely guesswork.

 

Thanks in advance for anyones help.

 

Alex

 

Edited to add: or is the Xu10 downpipe usable and is it any good or is it restrictive. Or does this only mate to the specific xu10 manifold and turbo combo.

Edited by bales

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welshpug

not 100% on this but wouldnt a turbo diesel downpipe do the job <_<

 

as far as I know most turbo elbows have the same fitting (to the turbo itself, 5 nuts IIRC) its the turbo to manifold that differs.

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