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Insurance Companies


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167 replies to this topic

#21
Jonmurgie

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feck all this... time to get out of trackdays and join the likes of Maxi terrorising the lambo drivers of this world :D

#22
boombang

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Tony, say I was on track and you hit me from behind.

First thing I would do is ask for all your details so you could pay for the damage - if refused would get a solicitor and sue you. Might not ask for 100% of the cost of repairs but if I was driving perfectly sensibly and though either you weren't or that you were at fault for driving a badly prepared car I may well do.

Same as if I hit someone and it was clearly 100% my fault - I'd put my hand in my pocket and pay up!

Well actually hopefully I wouldn't as always had 3rd party track insurance, on track make myself as much space as possible, don't race and if I think there is a risk will always come off, talk to the marshalls/organisers and get it sorted.

I'm not trying to make enemies or piss anyone off but its true - someone smashes your pride and joy you'd want them to pay for it!

#23
notamondayfan

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surely once you take your car on the track its your responsibility. as a driver you know what to expect, it isnt like driving on the road. different rules do apply.

if i took a ferrari on track, with out insurance, then as far as im concerned im basically waving my right to sue, as surely it would be myself who has been neglegant in not getting insurance in the 1st place!

if a boxer goes into the ring, and gets a total pasting, and can never fight again, do they sue?

#24
jackherer

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A lot of us are insured with HIC who include track day cover but is this for our own car or is it 3rd party cover (or both?)

#25
boombang

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surely once you take your car on the track its your responsibility. as a driver you know what to expect, it isnt like driving on the road. different rules do apply.

if i took a ferrari on track, with out insurance, then as far as im concerned im basically waving my right to sue, as surely it would be myself who has been neglegant in not getting insurance in the 1st place!

if a boxer goes into the ring, and gets a total pasting, and can never fight again, do they sue?


To the first bit - its up to you not to drive your car like a prick, but you can't stop someone else. Are you saying its ok to drive as you like on track and that if your driving causes damage/injury its ok?

2nd bit - No. Insurance isn't required but again we aren't talking about what you do to your own car but what others can do to you.

3rd bit - if the fighter was on the ropes being hit over and over whilst unconscious and everyone stood around letting it happen then of course they sue. If they go in the ring, get knocked out and that results in injury then its down to them. If a third person driving their car way too fast comes skidding into the ring and knocks the fighter down is it ok because it wasn't on a public highway and that being in the boxing ring he expected to get hurt anyhow?

If you actually think about it nothing is black and white hence I mentioned negligence. If your not going to read and instead use totally meaningless parallels there isn't much point posting when I am just trying to help.

#26
TonyGTI

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A lot of us are insured with HIC who include track day cover but is this for our own car or is it 3rd party cover (or both?)


Jackherer,

I understand they cover you have (subject to usual huge excess) is for your own car, but not for damage/injury to third parties but suggest you read the small print!!


I understand Jonmugie's sentiments, but I am keen to know where I stand legally. I do tend to follow people right up their *rse so maybe a bit more gentlemanly conduct in future would not go amiss at least for me!!

Tony

#27
damien

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ok im lost.

i was always under the impression that if i hit someone/they hit me when going round the track we cant place a blaim, is this true?

what about if one of the partys does have track day inurance? i.e i do and the other party doesnt, could he claim off my insurance (if i hit them) to get his car repared?
it dont seem right that one person should pay out to insure there car when joe blog next to you is driving around in a 100 old bangger not giving a monkeys to whats going on around him

#28
boombang

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Damien its purely down to fault + negligence.

For example -

you brake late into a corner and spin, the guy behind was too close and hits you. Both of you agree its fine and go home.

Alternatively if you had been going through the corner on a cool down lap, right indicator on and tucked up on the inside. Someone spanks right into the back of your car out of control through the corner and they are at fault, negligent and therefore you have a case to claim for the damage.

If nobody bar yourself was negligent or at fault then there is no claim.

#29
damien

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ah i see, so you could go use a small claimes court to get your money back on damages

#30
boombang

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Assuming there was proof of negligence there is nothing legally I can see to stop you going to court and winning.

#31
pugrallye

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not really one for trackdays but i have a few queries...
always understood that for example, car gets clipped, spin off hit the wall, your loss, pray you have insurance.
why arent scrutineers present to inspect your car to make sure its track worthy?

#32
Andy_C

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Interesting discussion this and to add an insurance perspective for y'all....

There have been a few cases come to court where sadly a driver has been killed on a trackday and the family have sued either the circuit, organizer or possibly the driver(s) deemed to be responsible. There's not yet been a successful case (the most recent I know of happened at Goodwood a couple of years ago).

Standard trackday cover will usually be limited to your car only. I had a conversation a while back with a well known trackday broker and he was massively against any form of liability cover being available as it would potentially damage the trackday industry - doesn't mean there's no liability exposure naturally but was an interesting debate...

Remember also that any insurer/broker providing trackday cover shouldn't be doing as part of your road cover - third party road cover shouldn't apply to a racing circuit or other similar venue as they're not subject to the Road Traffic Act but of course the RTA keeps being changed to define "roads" as being more public areas :)

The circuit, organizer and participants all have a basic common law duty of care (as you all know) but what many don't know is that this duty of care can't be waived, whether in writing or verbally so the disclaimers which exisit are actually worthless as they'd be deemed to be unfair contracts under (from memory) The Unfair Agreements Act 1977 and as such would not usually be considered as part of any case which were to end up in court.

It's be worth anyone's while to speak to Richard Egger at Competition Car Insurance for any further info/opinion - he's one of the UK's foremost trackday specialists and knows his stuff :angry:

#33
Guest_LCR_*

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this is why i take the 309 on the track and not my leon i can afford too loose a couple of hundred quid if someone wipes my car out and like wise if i spin into the wall, but not 13k if you take an expensive car on the track without insurance then you are asking for trouble.

#34
holemi

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Interesting discussion this and to add an insurance perspective for y'all....

There have been a few cases come to court where sadly a driver has been killed on a trackday and the family have sued either the circuit, organizer or possibly the driver(s) deemed to be responsible. There's not yet been a successful case (the most recent I know of happened at Goodwood a couple of years ago).

Standard trackday cover will usually be limited to your car only. I had a conversation a while back with a well known trackday broker and he was massively against any form of liability cover being available as it would potentially damage the trackday industry - doesn't mean there's no liability exposure naturally but was an interesting debate...

Remember also that any insurer/broker providing trackday cover shouldn't be doing as part of your road cover - third party road cover shouldn't apply to a racing circuit or other similar venue as they're not subject to the Road Traffic Act but of course the RTA keeps being changed to define "roads" as being more public areas :)

The circuit, organizer and participants all have a basic common law duty of care (as you all know) but what many don't know is that this duty of care can't be waived, whether in writing or verbally so the disclaimers which exisit are actually worthless as they'd be deemed to be unfair contracts under (from memory) The Unfair Agreements Act 1977 and as such would not usually be considered as part of any case which were to end up in court.

It's be worth anyone's while to speak to Richard Egger at Competition Car Insurance for any further info/opinion - he's one of the UK's foremost trackday specialists and knows his stuff ;)

some thing that ive just read from the BARC rules for a sprint at curborough in their regulations says " competitors are reminded that the road traffic act now applies to private property "...now i am confused :angry:

#35
Rob Thomson

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some thing that ive just read from the BARC rules for a sprint at curborough in their regulations says " competitors are reminded that the road traffic act now applies to private property "...now i am confused :blink:

Hmmmm.... My understanding was that certain parts of the RTA apply anywhere. For example, if you owned a farm and were twirling about in a car in a field and happened - say - to kill a trespassing walker, then you could still be charged under the 'Causing Death by Dangerous Driving' bit of the RTA.

When you compete in motorsport you have to sign a declaration that says a few things; that you're aware that motorsport is dangerous, that you don't mind if you get killed, etc... but I also thought it neatly got you out of the RTA thing, that it doesn't effect properly organised and sanctioned motorsport events.

Obviously in rallying co-drivers get killed every now and again, and although there are inquests I've never heard of anyone being charged with Causing Death by Dangerous Driving or anything else. Most obvious recent case was Michael Park. The inquest said something like, "He died competing in a dangerous sport, but was aware of the risks involved. The end."

That's my understanding anyway. I should probably read the small-print next time I do a rally...

Trackdays are a complete unknown, but I wouldn't be surprised if those parts of the RTA apply.

#36
Andy_C

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Hmmmm.... My understanding was that certain parts of the RTA apply anywhere. For example, if you owned a farm and were twirling about in a car in a field and happened - say - to kill a trespassing walker, then you could still be charged under the 'Causing Death by Dangerous Driving' bit of the RTA.

When you compete in motorsport you have to sign a declaration that says a few things; that you're aware that motorsport is dangerous, that you don't mind if you get killed, etc... but I also thought it neatly got you out of the RTA thing, that it doesn't effect properly organised and sanctioned motorsport events.

Obviously in rallying co-drivers get killed every now and again, and although there are inquests I've never heard of anyone being charged with Causing Death by Dangerous Driving or anything else. Most obvious recent case was Michael Park. The inquest said something like, "He died competing in a dangerous sport, but was aware of the risks involved. The end."

That's my understanding anyway. I should probably read the small-print next time I do a rally...

Trackdays are a complete unknown, but I wouldn't be surprised if those parts of the RTA apply.


It's a nightmare mate - as I understand it the RTA applies to "land to which the public have access" - nice clear definition.....

As an example, everywhere at say Silverstone would be subject to RTA apart from the track & pitlane so I believe as even though it's a private estate effectively (i.e. you can't simply drive in beyond the security barriers) you can be granted access to the various roads and parking areas, paddock etc.

As for the declaration, it would certainly indicate that you, as a competitior, understand the potential hazards inherent to motorsport but it doesn't absolve the event organiser/circuit owner etc from their duty of care.

Interestingly, I read the complete judgement on a fatality which occurred at a circuit a couple of years ago, where the driver's family sued the circuit and trackday organiser. The disclaimers never enetered into either party's case at all and it was deemed that the driver was simply killed following an unfortunate and unavoidable accident.

I'm not a competitior but do regularly get asked to provide "between stage" standard road cover for rally cars (mainly historic stuff) where they will travel on an open road between 2 stages, where normal RTA conditions apply just the same as any of us driving to work etc. There may be a need for Third Party cover during stages but I understand that the organiser will usually arrange this - usually via Richard Egger, hence why I suggested his opinion may be a bit more specific then mine :P

There's a fair bit of liability type debate going on in the historic motorsport industry at the moment - stuff like this and also original vs reproduced (and in theory safer) safety critical parts.

Edited by Andy_C, 06 September 2006 - 04:13 PM.


#37
boombang

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Spoke to a solicitor friend.

If there is clear negligence or an offence like dangerous driving he reckons it'd be a tough battle but probably worthwhile.

Main issue to get round would b the Judge saying "you were on a racetrack what did you expect?" but of course he reckons its no worry so long as they are clearly at fault.

On incidents where no blame can be contributed or you couldn't proove anything he agreed entirely it would be waste perusing it further than perhaps a solicitors letter as it wouldn't go anywhere in court.

#38
cookiemonster

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Interesting stuff

The difficulty would seem to be the definition and proof of negligence when it comes to driving on a race track where we can safely assume there is a higher level of accepted risk and danger.

I think its fairly clear that just the act of loosing it on a corner on a race track under normal track conditions would not construe negligence. Therefore, if I loose it through normal track driving and collect you, its fair that I'm not negligent and so am not liable for your damages. For you to claim from me you must prove that i was negligent: i.e. First I have to do something bad, Second there has to be "negligence" (i.e. its not a chance happening), and Third you have to be able prove this (non-trivial as they say).

The only example I can think of where someone may be liable for anothers damage is if they were doing something silly (overtaking on corners), were reported for it (so now there is a record - the "proof") and then took someone else out before they were pulled off. In that case the person would be acting outside the rules - doing a concious act that they should not be doing.


Couple of other things

I hate to say this, but in reality if i made an honest mistake on a track day and took someone else out, I dont think I'd be in a hurry to pay for their damage. I'm not a nonce, I've maybe 60 or 70 track days & races (god - how much have i spent on this?? :huh: ) under my belt and have a sensible attitude on track. But if i span in a corner and collected matey in their 911 then I'd be very sorry, but it would end there. Spins and offs do happen, in the wet especially, and I wouldnt take my car on track again if i thought there was a chance I'd be looking at a 20,000 bill for someone elses car.

I'm guessing that there are many people that will state and perhaps believe that they would "do the right thing" and pay for someone elses damage. But in reality many people will convince themselves that it was actually 50/50 (he was too close, going to fast - otherwise I wouldnt have collected him) or find some other way of justifying their actions. Also the reality of finding multiple thousands of pounds to give to someone else may adjust peoples views. There's a world apart between 15 for a dented 205 wing, and 80,000 for a rear ended ferrari...

Am I a horrible person? :)

Second - I dont think having or not having insurance makes a difference to this discussion: at the end of the day insurance is just about who writes the cheque, it doesnt change who is liable for the damage.



Jon

#39
clifton

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im 17 and have just got a 205, but i cant find any insurance companys that will insure me, can any of you recommend any, if anyone has had this problem before how did they resolve it?

ben

#40
kate205gti

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Momo is up for renewal in a few days and ive had a renewal of 420 come through on a classic car policy which isnt bad :D but they will match any like for like policy that i can get cheaper so im shopping around!

any recommendation for good companies please|? :) after a limited mileage policy on a 17 yr old car with lots of mods and track cover?

cheers :D