[car_overhaul] Sorrento Surgery

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

On a positive note, it shows that 205 driveshafts work OK with 309 wishbone(s), right?

[Anthony 1,000]

To be fair Ant, you're doing the right thing, like you said, "Fix it or Strip it" - It WOULD have been a death trap to sell on, just a matter of time.

I have no intention of selling a sub-standard 205, and won't sell it to someone as it is now, let alone the state it was when I bought it.

 

If I can, I would much rather get it sorted and sell as a complete running tidy car, but if I can't, if it won't be selling someone a turd - I have too much of a conscience to do that. It will be a shame to break and further reduce the ever-depleting numbers, but if that turns out to be the best course of action, then so be it - after all, the parts won't go to waste and will keep numerous others on the road.

 

On a positive note, it shows that 205 driveshafts work OK with 309 wishbone(s), right?

Indeed, although it was already known that 205 'shafts often work fine on 309 wishbones - just seems to be that in certain circumstances (I guess when tolerances stack up the wrong way) the joint will pull out on full lock/droop hence why it's best using 309 'shafts if at all possible.

[Anthony 1,000]

Changing tact for a minute, I decided to get the interior finished off.

 

The passenger and rear seats had been in good condition, and had just needed a good clean and the leather feeding with some Gliptone Liquid Leather to soften and protect it. The drivers seat however needed a little more work, with the lower bolster having collapsed and the stitching having come away on the rear of the base.

 

 

Removing the cover shows the bolster - it's better than many, but is still scrap and is cut out and replaced with a good bolster removed from a scrap passenger seat. The inner bolster on the seat was still in very good condition and fine for being reused.

 

 

With the cover removed, the stitching on the back is easy enough to redo and having done a few now, I'm getting quite good at it. I'll make a good wifey for someone I'm sure

 

Cleaned and fed, the seat came up pretty well and looks good refitted into the car with the other seats. In an ideal

 

world it would want a replacement base cover, but overall I would say that the interior is pretty tidy

 

 

 

That distraction out of the way, it's back onto trying to work out what's amiss driveability wise.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Surely its not beyond saving? Or are you concered about bent chassis's!?

[Anthony 1,000]

Surely its not beyond saving? Or are you concered about bent chassis's!?

The later, sadly.

 

It's been up a curb heavily hence the damage and bent suspension parts, that much is clear, but given that it still isn't driving at all right despite having replaced or checked everything obvious. The concern is that the shell itself is either bent or what I'd call "slack", and if it is, I'm wasting my time as it will never drive well and never be what a good 205 should be - balanced, taut, communicative, and above all, fun.

 

And if a 205 isn't what a 205 should be, it is nothing.

 

I'm off work the next couple of days and the weather forecast is looking reasonable, so it's crunch time - I have known-good spares of everything that I've not yet changed (but have mostly checked/measured) and I'm hoping that will fix it... but I have a gut feeling that it won't

[welshpug 1,621]

would it be easier to have it checked on a 4 wheel laser jig than spending a lot of time swapping bits?

[Anthony 1,000]

Under normal circumstances, yes it potentially would be,

 

However, there's so little left to swap out and it's (comparatively) so little time to do so, it's easier just to swap out and be done, given that serves two purposes - rules out something as to being the cause if it doesn't fix it, and obviously fixes the problem if it does.

 

4 wheel alignment results don't tend to be that helpful in actually telling you what's wrong IMO, only that there is something wrong. Think of it this way - if it came back and said that for example there was excessive camber and caster on the O/S/F wheel but that everything else was within spec, given that there's no adjustment (other than front toe) to dial anything out, you're still left with having to swap out everything on that corner/axle to get to the bottom of it if nothing is obviously amiss just as you would have been.

 

Clearly with a car that has fully adjustable suspension (say an MX-5) then a 4 wheel alignment check is much more beneficial.

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

Indeed, although it was already known that 205 'shafts often work fine on 309 wishbones - just seems to be that in certain circumstances (I guess when tolerances stack up the wrong way) the joint will pull out on full lock/droop hence why it's best using 309 'shafts if at all possible.

 

I think that ride height might play a significant role (or at least the touch that makes the difference) in this.

[Alastairh 47]

That steering rack still doesnt sound good to me. Stick at it, although in some ways it sounds as if youve talked yourself into donoring it.

 

Im about this weekend for the door if you need it.

 

Al

[tidypug 5 2 Cars]

Your braking issue sounds like the prolem I had with my car. It turned out to be a seized / sticking rear caliper.

[welshpug 1,621]

Just read back through the thread, you say it needs a new beam, hopefully that sorts the scaryness, it did on a couple of 306's I've sorted recently.

[sensualt101 31 1 Cars]

am following this with great interest and i am impressed! i am sure you will solve the issues and save another 205 gti! i would have it! in a heartbeat!

[Anthony 1,000]

Your braking issue sounds like the prolem I had with my car. It turned out to be a seized / sticking rear caliper.

The braking issue I'm somewhat less concerned with as that should be easy to track down - certainly entirely plausible that it's a sticking rear caliper

 

Just read back through the thread, you say it needs a new beam, hopefully that sorts the scaryness, it did on a couple of 306's I've sorted recently.

I'm going to temporarily swap the beam over with the rebuilt 309 one from my old 205 to rule out a beam related issue, but I'm pretty convinced that it's an issue with the front end that's causing the woes. I've driven enough cars with dead or dying beams over the years, and they certainly do have a significant effect on the handling, but not the same manner that this one is suffering.

 

I would have had it swapped over today, but decided to pull my finger out and change the cambelt on the ever-trusty 306 to keep that plodding away for months to come - over 50k miles I've done in the old girl since I bought it two and a half years ago from brian_j on here, and like so many of my cars, one that I stumbled upon without ever having particularly looked for.

[davey sprocket 14]

Good work so far Anthony, just hope it will all come together in the end!

 

Can I request that you continue buying and doing up 205's please.... your project write-ups make fantastic reading and are invaluable real-world help to numerous 205 owners out there! Thanks!

 

 

It does make you wonder just how many of us out there are driving 205s that we think are great but actually handle and perform way off what they should actually do without realising it because of lack of experience of good, well sorted examples?

[Anthony 1,000]

I tried, believe me I did, but I'm admitting defeat on this one now.

 

Swapped the beam over earlier, removing the what appears to be original one that I knew was on its last legs and replaced it with the rebuilt and uprated 309 beam from my previous 205. This basically ruled out absolutely everything on the rear of the car - beam, stub axles, mounts and dampers.

 

Old 205 beam removed

 

Took the opportunity to check over the rear calipers with the braking issue in mind, and other than the NSR handbrake barely working due to what appears to be a cable issue, everything looked fine with them - the sliders move freely, the handbrake arms move freely, and the pistons wind in and out as they should. Disks and pads look fine too, being a touch more worn on the OSR as you'd imagine what with the handbrake having been dragging previously.

 

That was good, but the boot floor wasn't. With the spare wheel and exhaust removed, it turned out that our good friend iron oxide had played a visit with a few patches of heavy corrosion that hadn't been immediately visible when I'd bought the car, and sure enough, a poke with a screwdriver and there were a couple of holes and a good few inches of the rear most part of the boot floor crumbled away

 

 

Once chased out the holes will be a fair bit bigger than that, especially at the rear of the boot where it's particularly bad, but even though I can't do it myself I know that it's not too difficult to weld up - after all, I had worse in the white GTi I did last winter and that got welded up and is now fine. Mentally however, it was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak and I'd all but thrown in the towel before I'd even dropped the car back on the ground on its new beam.

 

Still, I'd come this far and out of sheer bloody mindedness as much as anything, I wanted to see whether I was right in my gut instict that the issue wasn't beam related - and I was, mostly at least.

 

New 309 beam fitted, but handling problems persist

 

Unsurprisingly the uprated 309 beam drove differently than the knackered 205 one and certainly you could feel straight away that the rear of the car was well sorted - it felt planted, it felt well damped (it's got my Bilstein Challenge dampers fitted) and with the uprated ARB, was much more willing to change direction - hell, for a brief moment I wondered if it had fixed it and I had been wrong all along.

 

Sadly, it hadn't and I wasn't. The rear end now being sorted simply highlighted just how woeful the front was in contrast. Turning the wheel you could feel the rear wanting to turn, but the front just shrugs its shoulders in that very Gallic way with little interest in turning in. The steering is completely inert with no feedback or feeling at all, and really curiously, while it tracks straight at slower speeds, it starts pulling progressively harder to the side the faster you go.

 

The braking issue however appears to be largely sorted, and whilst it doesn't feel steady under hard braking and tries to wander somewhat (a function of the front suspension/steering woes I suspect) the middle pedal is no longer acts to change lane or pitch you off the road. I'm not exactly sure what fixed it - whether it was the beam swap, having removed and refitted the rear calipers, or having wound the pistons in and out and reset the handbrake mech - but fixed it appears to be.

 

I did try to swap over the rack and subframe, even though I'm fairly convinced neither are an issue, but it had other ideas and the retainer for the captive nut went "ping!" and left the bolt turning round and round to no effect.

 

You could almost sense the car sneering at me with that final act of defiance, that final f**k you.

 

This is the end of the road for me and this car, and whilst it will soon exist no more, it will atleast donate its parts, panels and trim help keep plenty of others on the road and up to scratch. Not really the ending that I wanted, but such is life sometimes

[Anthony 1,000]

Can I request that you continue buying and doing up 205's please.... your project write-ups make fantastic reading and are invaluable real-world help to numerous 205 owners out there! Thanks!

Glad to hear that my threads are useful to people - I'm not sure about buying any more 205's in the near future though, as having done three in the last year (Feb's, mine, and this abortion) I've had quite enough for the moment! I want to spend the year driving and enjoying them for a change - that is, after all, the reason for owning one of these legendary cars.

 

It does make you wonder just how many of us out there are driving 205s that we think are great but actually handle and perform way off what they should actually do without realising it because of lack of experience of good, well sorted examples?

The answer to that I believe is quite a lot - certainly I've had quite a few people throw me the keys to see what I think of their car, and whilst they've sometimes been a little taken back when I've pointed out some of the flaws that they were completely unaware of, they've been much happier when those have been addressed and they've realised the true potential of a 205.

 

Take this Sorrento - to someone that didn't know 205's, I'm sure that they would think that it drove OK and that it handled like it did just because it was an old car and, well, that's how old cars drive isn't it?

[Baz 421]

 

This is the end of the road for me and this car, and whilst it will soon exist no more, it will atleast donate its parts, panels and trim help keep plenty of others on the road and up to scratch. Not really the ending that I wanted, but such is life sometimes

 

Definitely is! As i've said before, sometimes self-preservation has to come before old Peugeot preservation and unfortunately you win some & you lose some, even with those that on the face of it initially seem redeemable!

 

A shame especially after all the effort you've put in, but good work and a good read never the less.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Baz

[Baz 421]

It does make you wonder just how many of us out there are driving 205s that we think are great but actually handle and perform way off what they should actually do without realising it because of lack of experience of good, well sorted examples?

 

Good point and wholly true, sometimes you don't notice yourself even if something has progressively deteriorated too, it takes someone else to point it out may be. I know as Anthony says above a few of us have done that to each other in the past!

 

Also worth pointing out quite how different one 205 can be from another despite even swapping the same parts from one to another. When you've had a few you notice this, they can be quite different geometrically which makes one a pin-sharp superbly handling car, when it's replacement may well not be. Something i'm having to face at the moment with my blue one having a few rust issues, i don't want to sack it off for my white one to replace it until i'm perfectly happy with the white one being a damn good one, as the blue one is, i'd rather fork out to have the rust issues sorted than lose what is a one in many, very special 205 IMO.

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

Its a shame to hear this Anthony but at least its gonna be an organ donor

 

 

 

I've enjoyed reading your progress and I'll look forward to your next progress blog whenever that may be.

[sensualt101 31 1 Cars]

its a shame to hear another 205 gti is going to the big scrapyard in the sky but i admire your attempt to save it and with your reputation i dont doubt that it would have been expensive to properly rectify and applaud that on safety grounds you have taken this decision

[Fox 3]

Seems a shame, although you've certainly done a good job exhausting all the possibilities!

 

I just hope my red one isn't like this when up and running, I'm rather tempted to put it back together and get it MOT'd before doing any paint work or body repairs, especially after reading this project...

 

At least you had the ability to drive it, and diagnose the problem before wasting time and effort on repairs to a damaged shell.

 

C'est la vie!

[feb 47]

Your courage, persistence and patience are too much honestly.

I can't even handle small problems and get demotivated.

As Fox said you have exhausted all possibilities.

At least it will give us some parts to keep others running and I hope you recoup what you have put in it.

[Anthony 1,000]

I just hope my red one isn't like this when up and running, I'm rather tempted to put it back together and get it MOT'd before doing any paint work or body repairs, especially after reading this project...

If you think back to my Jalopy thread, you'll remember that I took what on the face of it was a slightly odd decision to build the car up with all the original parts, take it on a long drive to get it MOT'd, and then drive it back home again only to strip it back down again.

 

On the face of it, that seemed like a huge waste of time and effort, but now you can start to see why I did what I did - part of the reason was to check that it drove and handled well as there was no way that I was going to let my white GTi go unless the Jalopy was atleast as good.

 

As Baz mentioned above, if you take a handful of 205's that are identical on paper, I can nigh-on guarantee you that they will all drive differently - part of that is obviously general wear and tear, some of it is bent or tired shells, and some I'm pretty sure is going to be down to the distinctly ropey tolerances that seem to be present elsewhere in 205 shells (as anyone that's done a few 16v conversions will confirm, what fits on one car is miles out on another!)

 

Your courage, persistence and patience are too much honestly.

I can't even handle small problems and get demotivated.

As Fox said you have exhausted all possibilities.

At least it will give us some parts to keep others running and I hope you recoup what you have put in it.

Patience and persistance sure, 205 ownership certainly requires them sometimes, but courage?

 

Courage was letting my ex drive the 205 you now own - any dents in the passenger footwell are probably from me stamping on the imaginary brake pedal whilst fearing for my life

 

As an aside, a friend of mine popped over yesterday who I had been in talks with about swapping/part-ex'ing the Sorrento against a 306 GTi-6 that he was looking to sell, although obviously since discovering that all was not well I had backed out as there was no way I was going to sell it to anyway, least of all a friend. Anyway, he popped over and whilst there had a quick nosy at the Sorrento (or "wonky" as he's nicknamed it) and he spotted something that I'd missed, namely that the two front wings aren't sat identically on both sides, and that given both appear to be original and untouched, does add weight to something being out of whack with the shell. I had spotted that the panel gaps between the wings and bonnet were out, but I'd just put that down to the bonnet having been replaced with the auto one and not quite being aligned right (as it's a pig to do sometimes)

[kyepan 291]

 

Courage was letting my ex drive the 205 you now own - any dents in the passenger footwell are probably from me stamping on the imaginary brake pedal whilst fearing for my life

Very funny!

[cRaig 265 1 Cars]

Mm, It would be interesting to know what kind of tolerances/ shell wear and tear/ damage is enough to make a difference between a good car and a dodgy one. Part of me does always worry that mine might be a "bad egg" after the crash, but sadly there wasnt really the option to drive it again before comitting to repairing it. Still, theres no hidden rust/ damage anywhere, and all of the suspension has been replaced. Time will tell I guess..