4wd Or Rwd 300hp?

[mbayley77 0]

Apologies first for not being involved in the forum for quite some time now! Ive been busy on other projects!

 

Ok I need some advice!

 

I have aqcuired another 205 as it has been too long since buying a car in a drunken state in the pub - and of course a 205 is an absolute must buy, especially after a few beers, and cider, and vodka!!!!

 

SO I have got this nice white 1.6GTI with blown gearbox. Well im afraid im going to upset the purests now and say im going to cut her, and cut her quite badly. Mine - well our plan (as the project is a joint venture), is to either maker her into a mid engined 300hp rear wheel drive - or a front engined 4wd.

 

Does anyone have any feelings or knowledge on a 300 BHP RWD short wheel base cars drivability? Or is it more wise to make her 4wd front engined? Im purely after if the RWD option is going to get the power down at all, and if she will go around corners?

 

I know its probably a completely wild imaginative project but its something I / we have wanted to do for ages now. We have both owned pugs before (I still have another one) and know them well enough to be confident in trying new things with this great breed.

 

The final sting in the tail is....she is planned to be powered by the subaru flat four turbo lump from an import impreza. Ive not heard of this being done before so its going to be learn learn learn every step of the way. Oh and did I say we are on a wife limited budget ha ha.

 

Well any thoughts you have please let me have em.

 

Cheers

Edited June 23, 2009 by mbayley77

[Goliath 94]

I would definitely say go for the front engined 4wd drive option over the mid engined rwd option, better power delivery and much better handling with the 4wd and the weight at the front. If you put the lump in the middle then it will handle like a clio V6, which is hardly something to die for! There are many, easier and cheaper, options to getting 300bhp upwards in a front engined 4wd 205, just been talking about it tonight with a mate

I think you would spend a hell of a lot of time and money trying to get the subaru lump and drivetrain to fit that you may lose heart and not complete it, also so much modification would be needed to the 205 that I doubt the project would feel as 'fun'.

 

Whatever you do though, good luck and keep us posted

[mbayley77 0]

Please dont leave me hanging - the 205 is bought and being collected tomorrow, the impreza is lined up (real cheap) and should be collected at the weekend but if you can give me alternatives to cheap 300ho before then im willing to look at anything.

[OlberJ 1]

We build V6 Mr2's with 200-280bhp (soon to be more) and they're helluva fun with that sorta power.

 

Although mid engined, it's very similar.

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Ive built a 4wd 205 and went through the same options, ended up using a 405 running gear cos I liked the idea of keeping it standard looking and it pretty much still drives like a 205. The inpreza option would be cool but as George said would be a lot of work, but if you are up for the challenge go for it, never seen it done before, there are a few 205 with 4wd cosworth running gear. Zcars do a kit to put a civic engine in to the back of a saxo and that looks like fun and would be less work than getting the inpreza running gear in.

Edited June 23, 2009 by thirdtimelucky

[fast_eddie 0]

I think a pure RWD car would be ace. I 3/4 completed a mk3 escort titan back in the day but the guy that bought it off me had mega trouble with the front geometry to get it to handle properly(he rallied it in the end and it didnt do too badly). I dont think the subaru running gear will handle rwd only though, so you would have to go for a sierra back end or similar to take the power. Sunbeam Lotus and HSR Chevettes used to do the do back in the day and I see no reason you would not get a properly set up front engined rwd car to handle well. Might be worth cutting the bulk head a little to allow the engine to sit back in a front mid mounted design to keep the engine as far back as possible.

A MK2 Escort is not particularly long and I rallied one for 3 years and loved it to bits!!

Good luck.

[base-1 17]

You'll struggle to get an Impreza engine in, the whole thing has to be forward of the axle line because of the front driveshafts.

 

A mid-mounted engine with 300hp in a 205 built on a wife-controlled budget will probably kill you the first time you use 250 of the 300 available, but if you can sort the suspension geometry out and stuff then it should be fine.

 

I'd be more inclined to go with a Cosworth setup, or something front engined and RWD. IIRC Cosworth 4wd arrangements have the engine between the uprights and the front of the 4wd system goes forward from the gearbox and then under the sump - so you could actually fit it in a 205.

[Baz 421]

As above, the Cosworth option is tried and tested and works well, for the reasons stated. The Front-drive setup on the ford's goes actually through/in the sump.

 

There's a number of ways to do it too, the most obvious, basically put the 205 shell on top of the donor car's floorpan/running gear, or chop the 205 shell about to take the complete running gear, inc. strut towers etc with modified/shortened shafts/prop, or spaceframe the whole lot...

[Dan Ingram 1]

Put the Impreza lump in!! The engine does sit in front of the front axel but being a boxer engine its only half the length of a normal 4cyl. the only problem is its quite wide.

[Rippthrough 98]

It depends if you are going with bespoke suspension or are trying to graft something in?

 

If the latter then forget mid-engined as chances are it'll handle like a dog.

[omega 82]

i nearly bought one of these with the scooby engine fitted in the front of a205 about ayear ago of ebay the engine sits so low and lots of good power made it a good idea in my mind,but the engine was not wired up so but me off as wireing is a black art to me[good luck]

[M@tt 77]

I'm building a 4x4 205 using a GTI6 engine and the running gear from a 405 mi16 4x4.

 

I'm supercharging using a M62 charger which is the next size up one from the M45 (found on allenallans & madspikes) its the same size as the M45 but the rotors are an inch of so longer inside so kick out more air. Allans has reliably made 250bhp so far on the M45 so i'm hoping for that at least or a bit more.

 

Ade4wd has done the whole 4wd setup before using the 405 4x4 running gear and it was a case shortening the 405 rear beam to the same width as the the 205 setup and it was therefore able to mount up to the 205 rear beam holes in the the shell. He's down your neck of the woods as well, just a thought as it keeps it all peugeot based and fabrication work fairly modest.

[Batfink 201]

rwd. You can then move the engine far back in the enginebay, modify the bulkhead and then use a rear axle from the scooby

You will have better weight distribution which will be vital.

There are RWD conversion kits for scooby's I believe but its not my scene so can't give more info than that.

 

The YB cosworth is way too heavy. If going ford look at the Duratec. Cheap to buy, cheap to tune and nice and light as its alloy rather than pig iron.

[mbayley77 0]

Wow...didnt expect to get so much input.

 

With any of these replies I dont want to step on anyones toes or even start to suggest that I know better than anyone on here.

 

I think we have decided to go the route of Front engined 4wd for now.........

 

These are some of the reasons we want to go with the route we chose.

1. Cost - we have both the subaru and the 205 sat for such little money it really doesnt seem to make sense having to buy the likes of the cosworth conversion etc. As mod actual fabrication costs im not to worried as we will do the conversion ourselves rather than paying an hourly rate to engineering companies etc. Time is something we have on our sides with no deadline required to be met.

 

2. Knowledge - We have both owned and built track / rally cars in both imprea and 205 form so hoping that the knowledge we have gained off of previous projects will help us to make the correct choices sooner rather than having to try and test so much (although we are still expecting to have to test quite some bit!).

 

3. Having measured up both the 205 and the impreza I believe the engine should fit quite snuggly in the front without having to cut chassis legs too much if at all (famous lads words i hear you screaming ) The bulkhead will of course take quite a pounding.....actually we think that the whole bulkhead will be removed and replaced basically with the impreza bulkhead to accomodate the gearbox and downpipe etc.

 

4. Looks - this is something we are not worried about keeping standard! If it ends up looking something like a burton machine then so be it...its more a chance to say, "hey look what we done"

 

5. Budget - I want it to be clear (and fully appreciate one of the comments made) that safety is very important and will be over engineered at probably every turn! But at the same time we will not be looking to buy additional items from off the shelf places if we can indeed make them ourselves - this is where the time will go im sure but this has to be the case.

 

6. Different - dont know why but this time we just want to be completely different because finally we can - previous projects have been a good and invaluable learning curve, as such it has meant we have followed conventional and usually the easier options given to us.

 

I dont want this to sound like we are heading in a direction that doesnt take into account everyones comments. You guys have gotten me through projects in the past and I find your knowledge impecable. This time is going to be no exception

 

Do any of you 4wd peoples have pictures of your projects? Such as rear subframe mountings? Space framing? whatever you have I need! Although the running gear may be of different origin - the basic science and engineering will be pretty much the same.

 

Dont be shy either - if you think we are stupid then say

 

Oh and finally - this design option may well give us the chance of going RWD also - BATFINK your correct there are basically centre diff conversion kits that make the gearbox send power to the rear only - so we thought this would give a taster of 250 - 300 through the rear wheels in a 205 without any further major works.

 

Whatever happens im going to bore you all to tears with a build history - although it will probably be longer than history itself

[kyepan 291]

A friend used to be a mechanic for a mid mounted vauxhall engined 205 that was campaigned in rallies.

 

 

He said it was exotic but awesome.

 

Would imagine a red top vauxhall engine would be cheap to source and give 250bhp ish, not the 300 you're looking for but close.

[fast_eddie 0]

I always said that I would spend a shed load of money on my mi engine and if I ever trashed the car then I would find a caterham without an engine and find a way to fit the mi into one of those---neither has happened yet!!

 

Good luck with the build, sounds like you have the determination to do it!

[mbayley77 0]

Here is donor car number 1 - a clean 205 1.6gti with blown gearbox but otherwise still great, taxed and tested everything

 

 

Next donor car is being looked at tomorrow so will keep everyone in the loop but hopefully a nice clean scoob to complete the family

[mbayley77 0]

In our quest to find a suitable donor vehicle for the 4wd project we have just been and bought a SUbaru WRX Import Wagon with a suspected head gasket gone, it still runs but has a fault code warning lamp lit so am dubious if its actually the head gasket - no milkyness on header tank cap - no bubbles forming in the header tank etc etc. Only time will tell I guess.

 

So here she is.....

 

 

Its actually quite sad that the wife and I could use a wagon like this as our everyday car but needs must so shes going for the chop!

 

After towing her back to her resting place, I mean place of transformation the partnership was formed.

 

 

Basically we are going to be taking the 205 back to a shell and then seeing how the subaru sub frames sit or probably more like it, dont fit. Youd never believe it but the distance between front strut tops is almost identical for both cars so hopefully just some minor adjustments needed for the front strut tops. Obviously front wings and iner wings will need chopping quite a bit as the track of the car is 5cm wider each side.

 

Looking at the engine bays the task ahead begins to really show itself!

 

From this

 

To this

 

So todays activities

 

Simple and pretty boring things obviously at the start of a project So we pumped the fuel tank dry which actally resulted in a quarter tank of fuel to be used elsewhere - £15 paid back keep it coming.

Next stage was to get ready to drop the engine out. As we are not using anything (well thats the plan) from this 205's running gear etc we decided to just pretty much unbolt everything and drop the lot. So off came the exhaust at manifold. All the loom was disconnected and water pipes to radiator / heater matrix taken off. Strut tops undone and up onto axle stands ready for the big drop. Next step will just to undo the subframe mounts and engine mounts dropping the front down as an assembly. Unfortunately time has stopped work for today but a pretty good start for a short working time. Oh and the radiator and cowling was removed also.

 

This is how it all looked by the end of today - ahhhhhhhhhh

 

Im going to try and keep log of the hours which go into this conversion as its always very difficult to remember how long youve ACTUALLY been working on something by the time a few months has passed.

 

Total time taken - 1.5 hours

 

If the moderators are looking at this - maybe they could move this to a new projects thread? Cant seem to start a new one from the projects page. Of course only if its deemed to be a project of worth.

Edited June 28, 2009 by mbayley77

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Excellent thread; balls out craziness and f*ck what anyone else thinks. I like it a lot.

 

I've never driven a Scooby, although - and I'm putting my balls on the block here - I have a feeling this 205 Boxer turbo conversion will be an odd beast with odd characteristics. That won't make it boring by any means but something's telling me it'll be a bit 'lurchy', i.e. on or off and not much in between. I could be wrong, and when it goes it'll be a hoot. People not in the know will think you're running on 3, and then whooooooosh!

 

Nice write up. Keep going dude.

 

(P.S. My idea for using Scooby engines was a quad turbo, flat 8 WRX STI set-up in a Noble, good for nearly 800-1000BHP - totally meaningless and useless power but worth a laff eh? )

[welshpug 1,627]

I dont know why, but I have the image of a subaru justy in my head now

[mattbenselin 0]

Just think of the look you'll get just with the sound this thing will make. I love the sound of the flat four, and in a 205 it will be something special! Keep updating this should be a great build.

 

Matt

[Rippthrough 98]

Seen one today with a WRX engine in the back and the diff's flipped over, went fairly well.

[mbayley77 0]

"Just think of the look you'll get just with the sound this thing will make. I love the sound of the flat four, and in a 205 it will be something special! Keep updating this should be a great build." - am really looking forward to hearing her run for the first time and seeing peoples faces, question is what to call it????

 

"Seen one today with a WRX engine in the back and the diff's flipped over, went fairly well." Where was this? Didnt happen to get any pics di d you?

 

Well all, had a few hours spent this week on getting the 205 stripped down ready for measuring etc for rough ideas on how to even start this conversion.

 

First things first the car was lifted onto axle stands so everything can be got at nice and easy.

 

Ok so the major things came off quickly and to try and avoid any unecessary damage happening. So bonnet and front bumper were first to go. Along with the rear carpets and plastic panels. These of course are well easy and took no time at all.

In doing this it reveals the 6 bolts to start removing the rear beam.

 

 

From under the car the first item to be cut was gone at - the rear brake lines were cut as they wont be used and we all know how bloody difficult they are to undo from their unions.

So once free from brake lines the 6 supporting nuts were removed from the car and the rear beam dropped to the floor and lifted away.

 

SURPRISES!!!!

 

1. Rear beam has grease nipples tapped into it suggesting a recent rebuild. The beam was excellent on car so am thinking it was done not so long a go. Ill get hold of the previous owner and check this out.

2. Rear Beam has Bilstein struts fitted which look also pretty new.

3. Solid Aluminium bush kit fitted to the rear beam.

 

All in all these items will help fund the build by being sold once cleaned up and details confirmed.

 

Moving to the front...........

 

Easy things removed so not to damage - lights / light adjusters / radiator and cowling.

 

Next we set to disconnecting the electrics / speedo drive / gear links / clutch cable etc and exhaust. Not too much of a problem here just really really dirty and oily from the 20 odd years this car has been on the road.

Eventually we got to removing the subframe from the chassis legs (4 bolts were worrying loose so check those bolts peoples!!!). The engine and box were propped using a large jack and wood whist the engine mount (upper only) and the gear box mount were undone.

By lowering the jack and a little muscle support the engine and subframe complete with front suspension was lowered to the groud and pulled away from the car.

 

Only one surprise at the front - Front struts are also bilstein units

 

 

Moving inside..........

 

Gaining access to the inside was aided by removing the doors (this also protects them by being away from the shed roof support beam which is annoying close to the car). So seats were removed, along with roof lining and then the really annoying task of the dash compononets. How is it that cheap plastic and semi-mangled pozi head screws can waste so much time???? This could have been made a lot easier by not worrying about the dash and ripping it out with brute force but we want to sell as much as possible in this project. The same was true with the loom - nothing was cut but everything unclipped instead. Nothing really special to report in this as its all basically nuts and bolts.....

 

 

Finally the sunroof was started to be removed......obviously we knew the car had a sunroof, but it wasnt until we took it off that we realised the car used to be NON sunroof someone cut a big hole in her!

 

 

Overall, the car looks great with no rust anywhere. The floor is slightly bent in places due to someone jacking in the wrong place, no hidden weld patches and no signs of a shunt.

 

All in all we are really pleased.

 

We know this is the easy bit and also makes for a boring write up / read!

 

So time taken for this is 7 hours for one person + 3 hours two people. (This stage total 13hours)

Total project time - 14.5 hours

[fast_eddie 0]

Cracking project love it!

Keep up the good work!!

[Rippthrough 98]

Where was this? Didnt happen to get any pics di d you?

 

Race meeting at the weekend