Mi Won't Start

[Masekwm 2]

Joy! Drove the car Thursday, felt fine.

 

Went out Friday, won't start. It doesn't turn, there is just a clunk.

 

Removed battery, charged it -> Clunk

 

Changed battery for one from my other 205 -> Clunk

 

Battered starter motor with hammer -> Clunk.

 

Put jump lead from battery to starter -> Clunk

 

Put tow rope to 205 and dragged it down the road with a freelander, it tries to run but won't run properly, just pops and bangs and if I dip the clutch it dies.

 

Dragged it home and checked all the connections, the alternator is warm to touch but not hot.

 

Any ideas? I'm baffled

[DamirGTI 327]

Cambelt ? id remove the cover and check it asap , visually and then time it up in order to see if it's slipped off before any other attempts on starting the engine ..

 

Damir

[hcmini1989 16]

Cambelt ? id remove the cover and check it asap , visually and then time it up in order to see if it's slipped off before any other attempts on starting the engine ..

 

Damir

 

 

either that^^^ or no engine earth,

[Masekwm 2]

Cambelt is in one piece, I will check the timing but will need to read how to first

 

It sounds more like a starter clunk than valves against pistons though

[hcmini1989 16]

Cambelt is in one piece, I will check the timing but will need to read how to first

 

It sounds more like a starter clunk than valves against pistons though

it has pins mate 2 in the cams and one in the bottom pulley have a search its all here

 

once you`ve checked that and if all comes back ok id try jump starting it agian but put t he negative from the other car/battery close to the starter i.e on the bellhousing .rather than on your battery negative terminal if it works then you know youve got a bad earth hence why it wont run or crank

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Put tow rope to 205 and dragged it down the road with a freelander, it tries to run but won't run properly, just pops and bangs and if I dip the clutch it dies.

Any ideas? I'm baffled

 

 

Could be the alternator, it's happened to me and a few others.

 

Driving fine

Stopped for petrol

Struggled to start

Made my way home (3 miles)

Started popping and banging, missfiring

Died.

 

Then

Towed home

Read forum

Swapped alternator

All good.

[Masekwm 2]

As I've tried so many ways this afternoon, trying to spin the engine again wouldn't cause any more damage.

 

Jump lead from other car to gearbox = clunk

 

Jump lead from neg to gearbox = clunk

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v230/mas...nt=SDV_0020.flv - Clunk

[hcmini1989 16]

i havnt got any sound on my laptop so sorry i cant here it

 

 

check the timing you only need a couple of bolts or drill bits .and if that comes back ok wizz the starter off and check it allso check the flywheel teeth and the crank sensor<----wouldnt stop it from cranking but would stop it from going with a bump

 

 

i know starters can be s*ite on pugs but very unlikely that your starters packed up and something else has come a miss

[Masekwm 2]

I will check the timing, rear discs & pads turned into a full days work with the car not starting so when I finally came inside an angry wife was waiting with a list of things to still be done.

 

I've had a read of the 406 Haynes (Thanks to M@tts sig) and see that it's similar to the 8v system but with two pins in the cams instead of 1, will hopefully get that done this week but it may have to wait till next weekend due to lack of light.

 

Thanks for your replies

[dcc 855]

Just a quick one, throw a live feed to the starter and see if the engine spins over. if it does then you have a problem in the circuit somewhere, most likely going to be the alternator, I am sure that these engines switch from battery to alternator as soon as you turn the engine over.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Just a quick one, throw a live feed to the starter and see if the engine spins over. if it does then you have a problem in the circuit somewhere, most likely going to be the alternator, I am sure that these engines switch from battery to alternator as soon as you turn the engine over.

 

Yep, I've posted this earlier on in the thread.

[hcmini1989 16]

Yep, I've posted this earlier on in the thread.

says hes tried a jump lead from the battery to the starter .

[Masekwm 2]

Just tried a bit of wire between starter and neg terminal...

 

Clunk and hazard flash...

 

Now, there it has a toad alarm on it which is I think is in working order and another which (I think) is deactivated, I've never had to turn it off. Now I'm wondering if the alarms are causing this

[hcmini1989 16]

well if youve tried a live wire from the battery straight to the starter and it did nothing then its not the alarm

 

you did put it to the right terminal on the starter so you bypassed the solenoid?

Edited January 25, 2010 by hcmini1989

[Anthony 1,000]

Just tried a bit of wire between starter and neg terminal...

It's starter solenoid to the battery POSITIVE terminal to engage the starter.

[Masekwm 2]

Oh yeah, positive terminal...

 

f***, I've done it all the wrong way round

[Masekwm 2]

Ok, Negative to gearbox = Clunk & hazards.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Masekwm

[hcmini1989 16]

Ok, Negative to gearbox = Clunk & hazards.

 

ok then its not a bad engine earth now try the positive to the starter solenoid .make sure its not in gear and try it on the starter solenoid stud (the stud with the wire going into the starter ) if it stills goes clunk take the starter off and bench test the starter .

 

 

then if the starter works ok you need to turn the engine by hand (ratchet on the bottom pulley) if it turns freely chances are the starters foooked

 

but it doesnt explain why it wouldnt run . but try ^^^^^^ that first one thing at a time

 

 

allso im unsure why your hazards come on that could be something to do with your alarm if you`ve had the battery of probably reset the alarm maybe

 

hence why when you tried to bump it wouldnt go

 

 

hope this helps mate

Edited January 26, 2010 by hcmini1989

[Masekwm 2]

It does, thank you for replying.

 

I tried the positive lead to starter, and it clunked.

 

So I took the starter off, with a lead from the negative of a battery to the starter and then a lead from the positive to the solenoid (? - basically where the lead to the battery attachs) - Nothing.

 

So I swapped the leads (just in case) , nothing.

 

Now I'm confused even more, if the starter was working it'd spin, but if it was what was broken then surely it'd clunk?

[James_R 3]

plug in to the emerald and see what's going on??

 

From memory with ben's car when you change the battery you have to dis arm the second unused alarm??

[Masekwm 2]

I think that second alarm has been removed, I remember Dan mentioning it when he did the gearbox and when I had the battery out at xmas it didn't need resetting, it's worth checking though.

 

But then the starter would spin off the car?

[hcmini1989 16]

I think that second alarm has been removed, I remember Dan mentioning it when he did the gearbox and when I had the battery out at xmas it didn't need resetting, it's worth checking though.

 

But then the starter would spin off the car?

yes the starter would spin off the car you did test right? didnt you.battery negative to the body of the starter and the battery posative tot eh starter soilnod stud

{the stud with the wire going inside the starter body }

 

 

it might be that when it hasnt started you have thought off the battery straight away then disconnected it wich has reset the alarm then you have trie to bump it

 

but if youve tested the starter as above and its not doing anything the its shot .so get another or get that one recon`d

[Masekwm 2]

Yay!

 

Despite it doing nothing earlier, I even got a neighbour to check. In my workshop (also known as the kitchen), I placed a jump lead to the body and to negative of the battery, undid the small nut that held the thin wire to the smaller bit of the starter and placed a length of wire on that stud, connected the wire to positive and...

 

Clunk!

 

The end bit jumps out and doesn't move. It's making the same noise as the car is in the video earlier. I shall replace the starter and see what happens.

 

Thanks again.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I had a feeling it was just the starter.

 

We really need to clarify this starter motor test as it was argued about recently when it's dead, dead simple.

 

1) The starter motor usually has a solenoid 'piggy backed' onto it. All connections are made to the solenoid rather than the starter motor itself.

 

2) There is no earth/ground terminal on a starter motor. It earths to the battery negative via its body, which means when connected to the gearbox/block it earths itself by physically being connected to the car.

 

3) There are two or three terminals - normally one or two large and one small. These are all positive, and the one or two larger ones are permanent live, with the thicker wires and ring terminals that connecting in this sequence:

 

alternator large terminal ---> solenoid large (or perhaps 1 of 2 large) ---> same large solenoid stud or second large stud ---> to battery postive post (or a shunt/distribution box of some kind which in turn goes direct to the battery positive post).

 

My point being, all wired connections are positive. The large ones are permanent live (with thicker wires) and the smaller one is a switched live.

 

4) What makes the starter work, is the solenoid becoming energised. This is done by the smaller connection on the back of the solenoid being connected to a switched live on position 'crank' of the ignition barrel (the spring loaded position). So with the key in that position, a 12v positive feed goes to the small ring or spade terminal on the back of the solenoid, which allows the high current wires to throw out the starter gear into the teeth located on/next to the flywheel and turn the starter motor.

 

5) This means (and to reinforce Mase's description), that to test a starter/solenoid combo, you need to first earth it with a thick wire from its metal body to the neg terminal of a battery. You then use another thick wire to the large post (if there are two, either will do), which goes to the positive terminal of the battery. Based on my description above, you should now know that nothing will happen, because the solenoid is not energised yet; it needs another positive feed, which is the same as when you crank the engine on the key.

 

6) So to actually test the solenoid/starter combo, you need to supply 12v (a thinner wire is fine) to the small terminal on the solenoid, be that a spade or small stud. You can do this with a length of wire from the battery positive post, or simply linking the small stud or spade to the large stud (either one) on the back of the solenoid. This may spark (and make you jump too) but it will show whether the starter motor and solenoid are actually working.

 

7) It may be worth securing the starter/solenoid combo to something firm before trying this test, as it could jump off the table and either break when it hits the floor or smash you in the foot.

 

This was a public service address, designed to remove the apparent on going myths/confusion concerning how a starter motor works and is tested.

 

Mase>

I am delighted you have most likely found the cause of your car trouble.

Edited January 27, 2010 by DrSarty

[Baz 421]

 

Edited for simplicity.