DamirGTI 327 Posted November 20, 2007 Hello ! Please i need some help , i have some starting problems – always when the engine is stone cold (like in the cold morning ..) it takes at least 5 - 6 cranking (sometimes less sometimes more ..) to make it start ... It starts first time if it's hot , warm , lukewarm or even if it's switch off 6 hours ago it still starts straight away first time no problem , but if i don't drive the car for one day (or 24 hours ..)and then try to start it next morning it's a bit hard job .. as i said it takes long time to catch/fire up .. and when it starts the revs first goes up to 1000rmp and after the 5 seconds the SAD opens and increase the revs to the 1800rmp ... I've notice that when I'm cranking the engine that the fuel gauge is dropping down ?!? why is this happening or is this normal ?! , fuel pump relay is working i can hear buzzy sound when i switch the contact on ... also when I'm switching the contact on/off few times simultaneously in order to make this buzzy sound come up 4-5 time more than usual after this it starts a little bit easier – then it needs less cranking ?! So is this fuel pump problem (pressure drop..) or SAD possibly ? ... The engine is fully rebuilt it has full service all sort of new parts fitted .... : plugs leads dizzy cap dizzy rotor arm H&H recurved dizzy injectors cleaned and tested coil ignition amp battery fuel filter ECU temp sensor (well it's 1year old but OE Peugeot sensor ..) cleaned all inlet pipework , breathers , AFM ... retracked and adjusted AFM .... etc. etc. The only thing is that i have FSE fuel pressure valve (it was a must to fit this because I've had lean mixture problems because i have ported head ..) and it's set up roughly at 3.4 Bar ... Anyway the car goes great , strong , fast , smooth no misfiring no jerking stalling hesitating no nothing what so ever it runs - sweat ! Any thoughts why is this happening on cold engine ? Thanks ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robbiecfc 0 Posted November 20, 2007 How cold is cold? Might sound like a silly question but if it is say -10Degrees C then I would be thinking Oil viscosity or perhaps battery strength! Hello ! Please i need some help , i have some starting problems – always when the engine is stone cold (like in the cold morning ..) it takes at least 5 - 6 cranking (sometimes less sometimes more ..) to make it start ... It starts first time if it's hot , warm , lukewarm or even if it's switch off 6 hours ago it still starts straight away first time no problem , but if i don't drive the car for one day (or 24 hours ..)and then try to start it next morning it's a bit hard job .. as i said it takes long time to catch/fire up .. and when it starts the revs first goes up to 1000rmp and after the 5 seconds the SAD opens and increase the revs to the 1800rmp ... I've notice that when I'm cranking the engine that the fuel gauge is dropping down ?!? why is this happening or is this normal ?! , fuel pump relay is working i can hear buzzy sound when i switch the contact on ... also when I'm switching the contact on/off few times simultaneously in order to make this buzzy sound come up 4-5 time more than usual after this it starts a little bit easier – then it needs less cranking ?! So is this fuel pump problem (pressure drop..) or SAD possibly ? ... The engine is fully rebuilt it has full service all sort of new parts fitted .... : plugs leads dizzy cap dizzy rotor arm H&H recurved dizzy injectors cleaned and tested coil ignition amp battery fuel filter ECU temp sensor (well it's 1year old but OE Peugeot sensor ..) cleaned all inlet pipework , breathers , AFM ... retracked and adjusted AFM .... etc. etc. The only thing is that i have FSE fuel pressure valve (it was a must to fit this because I've had lean mixture problems because i have ported head ..) and it's set up roughly at 3.4 Bar ... Anyway the car goes great , strong , fast , smooth no misfiring no jerking stalling hesitating no nothing what so ever it runs - sweat ! Any thoughts why is this happening on cold engine ? Thanks ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 20, 2007 Hi ! No it's from +2 up to +5C here in the morning and the oil viscosity is 10W-40 (also new oil filled before 200 miles ..) Must be something with fuel -> fuel pressure - fuel pump - or tachy relay me thinks ?! or something else... Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pacey205 2 Posted November 20, 2007 Have you checked what sort of spark your getting ? I only ask as mine refused to start the other day and the coil contact in teh dizzy was shot so it wasnt starting when cold but seemed fine when it was warm, might be worth a look. Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony 1,000 Posted November 20, 2007 Could be that the fuel pump isn't holding pressure properly and allowing fuel to slowly drain back into the tank when the engine is switched off, and the pump is having to repressurise the fuel rail before sufficient fuel will be injected to start the engine which usually takes a good few seconds of cranking. Easy to test for. When you come to start the car first thing in the morning, hardwire the fuel pump to run it for 10 seconds or so to ensure that there's sufficient fuel pressure at the fuel rail, and then try to start the car normally - if it starts first time, then you've found your culprit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEX 98 1 Cars Posted November 20, 2007 (edited) I had the same problem and Antony post was correct! Edited November 20, 2007 by ALEX Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 20, 2007 Hello ! Ok. I've fit other/spare fuel pump (it's a bit oldish from my 87year 1.6 car ..but it works ..) , replace all rubber fuel pipes and will see how it will be tomorrow in the morning (I've try to start the engine now and there was no problem it fires up from the first time ... also been driving and all seems fine ) Anyway I've found that i have only 2 bolts which holds the fuel pump inside the tank - someone was removing the fuel pump before and snap off all the fuel pump bolts except these two and only these two are left is this a problem ? and there's all sorts of rubbish down inside the fuel tank i must remove it one day and clean that s***t out ... Thanks for help i will report back tomorrow morning Cheers ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 21, 2007 Hi ! Bugger , still no good I've had same cold start problem this morning ... WTF is wrong with this car ?! So... today I've remove this FSE valve (was a little bit oily low down when i run my fingers around the seal ..) fit OE standard pressure regulator but now the car runs like a crap - lean mixture is back , doesn't want to pull as it was before ... feels a good bit slower now .. :glare: ..... ..... Regards Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEX 98 1 Cars Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) You could check the SAD unit by connecting it to a battery. It's a bi*ch to remove as the dizzy and a bunch of pipes are in the way, but it would benifit from a clean anyway if it's never been off. To test it connect it to a battery and it should take about 5 mins to fully close. If it's not already stuck closed! Edited November 21, 2007 by ALEX Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 21, 2007 Hi ! Yes i know :glare: it's a real pain to remove/refit that bloody SAD thing , but anyway I've check that also - been removing the pipe at the back of the SAD and tried to stick a thin screwdriver inside the SAD and i can fell that there is a gap inside the bimetallic strip and that it's opened and i presume wide enough also been blowing inside the SAD pipe from the TB/inlet side and the air goes trough the pipes pass the SAD and inside the inlet manifold so nothing blocked there ... also been cleaning and testing this SAD a few times before 6 months and yesterday when i was changing the fuel pump .. and yes it close up when the engine gets hot .. it's just that it doesn't raise the revs up first minute when the engine starts/fire up - it start raising the revs around 5 seconds after the engine is started .. But is it possible that the SAD is making this cold engine cranking problems ? i was thinking that the engine must fire up even if the SAD doesn't work .. or ? I was in a hurry this morning so i didn't have enough time to test if the fuel rail is pressurized and does the fuel sprays out from the injectors .. but will try that tomorrow .. if it doesn't get any better with this OE pressure regulator maybe the FSE valve was leaking the pressure out .. Thanks ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 21, 2007 .... heres some pics of this famous FSE thing , blue arrows are pointing on the area from where was leaking .. but it wasn't fuel leak , it was oil (oil which gets inside the pressure regulator from the inlet manifold ..) as this is on the manifold/pressure side of the FSE valve in between the metal surface and the rubber gasket/seal ... pics : http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=fse1-1.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=fse2-2.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=fse3-3.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=fse4-4.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=fse5-5.jpg If i found that this was the problem , well then this Mr. FSE will meet Mr. Hammer tomorrow i will have all day free just for banging and kicking this FSE device until it breaks down in bits and pieces .. Cheers ! damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEX 98 1 Cars Posted November 21, 2007 Sounds like somethings wrong. I'm out of ideas but I'd re-check everything, I bought a faulty new dizzy cap once gave poor starting. the little plunger inside the cap that touches the rotor arm came loose within a few days. Also Get the fuel pressure measured. if you can. try and eliminate each component one by one by testing them if you can rather than buying new items that you think might be suspect. Chances are it's a dodgy connection somewhere. Are you getting a good spark? check all eathing points battery conns. etc.. The only other thing other than the AFM that effects the fueling is the ECU temperature sensor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 21, 2007 Well i didn't try to remove the plugs/leads to check for spark as this starting problem happens only in the morning next day on stone cold engine and i didn't have enough time this morning to try all this checks but will try tomorrow step by step .. :glare: Funny but I've spend a good bit of money on new leads (ProSpark quality leads .. ) new dizzy cap (was a bit expensive OE Bosch cap ) new rotor arm , new spark plugs (NGK BCPR7ES) all fitted 2 months ago ... also i have 3 ECU temp. sensors one (currently fitted) is OE Peugeot sensor 1year old , one new aftermarket sensor and one old Bosch sensor .. and I've been testing them today with an analogue multimeter which also has scale for C degrees temperature measurement and all 3 of them are showing similar if not the same temp. readings when immersed in engine coolant But the most annoying thing is that i must wait till the morning to test all this when the engine cools down completely after 24 hours ... and only then this starting problems appears (fingers crossed that it was this leaky FSE ) Cheers ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simonb 0 Posted November 21, 2007 Have you tried giving the connection to the ignition amp a good waggle before trying to start it. i.e. unplug it and plug back in? This is the problem on mine and I need to rewire it at some point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 21, 2007 Have you tried giving the connection to the ignition amp a good waggle before trying to start it. i.e. unplug it and plug back in? This is the problem on mine and I need to rewire it at some point. Hello ! No but will try that Cheers ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEX 98 1 Cars Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) I've figured out your Cold start problem! If it's still not started after 7 minutes It's got Scott Carson Syndrome Edited November 21, 2007 by ALEX Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 21, 2007 ... ..well me thinks that I've fix this bloody cold start mystery I've fit back OE pressure reg. this morning and the car was left standing around 10-11 hours from then , been try to start it now and it fires up first time .. however the fueling with OE pressure reg. is way too lean the car goes so slow , doesn't wan to pull at all seems so sluggish and if i continue to drive with the OE pressure reg. i will melt the engine because of this lean fuel mixture ... so i fit another FSE pressure reg. (but the new one this time ..) ... and again -> waiting for the morning to test if it's really fine now (looks like I've made myself a good head job on this engine because this car needs a lot more fuel then when all was standard the differences when running with the OE pressure reg. and the FSE are day and night - i goes so much faster with FSE like it's different engine under the bonnet ...) Cheers ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEX 98 1 Cars Posted November 21, 2007 It seems to me that the boost valve is trying to get the best from a low fuel feed. i.e. clogged lines, worn pump, dirty fuel fiter but you said you've changed these. As it should run perfect with the OE regulator. Can the lean mixture with the OE regulator be tuned out by adjusting the Dizzy advance? If it's an old Dizzy, the Bob weights that control the advance at high revs might be Jammed open. The boost valve could be compensating the difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simonb 0 Posted November 21, 2007 Hello ! No but will try that Cheers ! Damir I know how it sounds but seriously, I have replaced pretty much everything all bar the pump and injectors trying to sort my starting problem but this is where the problem lies on mine; however the wires going to the ignition amp all look OK and aren't broken, but unplugging it and plugging it back in always lets the car start first time - wiered I know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 22, 2007 (edited) It seems to me that the boost valve is trying to get the best from a low fuel feed.i.e. clogged lines, worn pump, dirty fuel fiter but you said you've changed these. As it should run perfect with the OE regulator. Can the lean mixture with the OE regulator be tuned out by adjusting the Dizzy advance? If it's an old Dizzy, the Bob weights that control the advance at high revs might be Jammed open. The boost valve could be compensating the difference. Hello ! No , all this things are new (well few months old .. I'm trying to keep all in good working order so I'm replacing parts more often then usual ) : all rubber fuel pipes fuel filter cleaned and flow tested injectors only the fuel pump is old (but i have 2 spare fuel pumps and no matter which one i fit it goes the same .. ) The dizzy is recurved to suit the engine specs - head job , high compression etc. and the guys from the H&H Ignition Solutions made this dizzy (and yes it was a hell of a improvement when I've fit this recurved one ) Anyhow i have an lambda sensor connected to the multimeter which is inside the car so that i can see roughly where the fuel mixture is going when I'm driving , and with OE pressure reg. it's good on idle and mid range but it goes increasingly lean when accelerating from mid range to the top end - when i put my foot down , and it's a bit dangerously lean on full load (6000rmp.) , with the FSE this doesn't happens , the mixture is a little bit rich on idle but it raises linear as I'm pressing the pedal/accelerating - it doesn't go lean from mid to top end with FSE it continues to raise all the time when I'm holding the acc. pedal pressed down .. I've really had a hard time to adjust the fuel mixture and ignition timing with this modified engine , the spark plugs where also shiny white color when i was running the engine with the OE pressure reg. and was popping from the exhaust on over-run .. and was receiving low readings from the lambda sensor all the time .. now it's a bit on the rich side with this FSE but better , it goes feels and preforms a good bit faster and smooth without hesitating ... also the spark plugs are nice coffee/tan color now ... Edited November 22, 2007 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 22, 2007 (edited) I know how it sounds but seriously, I have replaced pretty much everything all bar the pump and injectors trying to sort my starting problem but this is where the problem lies on mine; however the wires going to the ignition amp all look OK and aren't broken, but unplugging it and plugging it back in always lets the car start first time - wiered I know. Hi ! That doesn't sounds strange to me at all ! I've also had all sort of strange things happening with this car in the past 5-6 years , weird electrical gremlins , weird fixing solutions etc. ... I've change now pretty much 80% of the electrical and mechanical parts on this car because it was in a really horrible state when i bought it first time – was just a bunch of rusty metal left/abandoned on the middle of the meadow with chickens jumping and running around him ... I've save this car from secure death with my bare hands , and it cost me a good bit of money also to make it running from bits and pieces .. but i don't regret that , it was hard , was time consuming and expensive but worth to do for this car , if it where some other car i wouldn't bother so much to do all this odd jobs of making the car from scrap rusty metal ... Anyway me thinks that I've fix this cold starting problem it started this morning with new FSE pressure reg. from the first time (also started up last night with the OE pressure reg. from the first time after 10-11 hours left standing ..) ... so far is good but will see after a few days if this cold start problems will appear again Looks like this old FSE pressure reg. was leaking Thanks boys for help !! Regards Damir Edited November 22, 2007 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roman 0 Posted November 22, 2007 Hello "susjed" i have same problem too and fix this with manual SAD (i took an alfa romeo idle motor and plug current regulator5-12v and some potentiometr and svitch )its vork like electronic flap more volt bigger gap and i manage to adjust my cold idle betven 800-1800 rev's. work fine better fuel economy and never stall vhem cold even -20c i run this first 5-10 min then svitch off. if you interested for this yust tell me and i give you detail instruction how it made(all parts cost you aprox 30E) and its 2-3h work ... cher's roman That doesn't sounds strange to me at all ! I've also had all sort of strange things happening with this car in the past 5-6 years , weird electrical gremlins , weird fixing solutions etc. ... I've change now pretty much 80% of the electrical and mechanical parts on this car because it was in a really horrible state when i bought it first time – was just a bunch of rusty metal left/abandoned on the middle of the meadow with chickens jumping and running around him ... I've save this car from secure death with my bare hands , and it cost me a good bit of money also to make it running from bits and pieces .. but i don't regret that , it was hard , was time consuming and expensive but worth to do for this car , if it where some other car i wouldn't bother so much to do all this odd jobs of making the car from scrap rusty metal ... Anyway me thinks that I've fix this cold starting problem it started this morning with new FSE pressure reg. from the first time (also started up last night with the OE pressure reg. from the first time after 10-11 hours left standing ..) ... so far is good but will see after a few days if this cold start problems will appear again Looks like this old FSE pressure reg. was leaking Thanks boys for help !! Regards Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 22, 2007 (edited) Hello "susjed"i have same problem too and fix this with manual SAD (i took an alfa romeo idle motor and plug current regulator5-12v and some potentiometr and svitch )its vork like electronic flap more volt bigger gap and i manage to adjust my cold idle betven 800-1800 rev's. work fine better fuel economy and never stall vhem cold even -20c i run this first 5-10 min then svitch off. if you interested for this yust tell me and i give you detail instruction how it made(all parts cost you aprox 30E) and its 2-3h work ... cher's roman Hello ! Well i don't have a problem with idle as the SAD works good on my car , thanks for the offer any way ! (i know about this idle speed stepper/motor conversion and i have one from some Ford model , Escort Fiesta or Sierra I'm not sure from which one is it but i didn't try to fit him instead of the SAD as I've successfully adjusted this bloody SAD thing to work properly ..) No it was the fuel pressure drop (hopefully ) which caused this cold starting problems - this old aftermarket FSE adjustable pressure reg. was leaking the pressure out of the system .. Cheers (pozdrav mladic ! ) Damir Edited November 22, 2007 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roman 0 Posted November 22, 2007 Hello ! Well i don't have a problem with idle as the SAD works good on my car , thanks for the offer any way ! (i know about this idle speed stepper/motor conversion and i have one from some Ford model , Escort Fiesta or Sierra I'm not sure from which one is it but i didn't try to fit him instead of the SAD as I've successfully adjusted this bloody SAD thing to work properly ..) No it was the fuel pressure drop (hopefully ) which caused this cold starting problems - this old aftermarket FSE adjustable pressure reg. was leaking the pressure out of the system .. Cheers (pozdrav mladic ! ) Damir ok glad to hear this ( i have here 3 GTI in part's so if you in future need something yust P.M. me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted November 22, 2007 ok glad to hear this ( i have here 3 GTI in part's so if you in future need something yust P.M. me Ok. thanks ! Kind regards Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
